Unknown: Hi. My name is Sarah Rachael Brown. I'm a 30 something year old woman and I live in Philadelphia. I'm a contemporary jeweler and like many others, I am an artist trying to make a living. On this podcast, I'm going to broach the subject of value. I'll be talking to studio artists and performers, educators and administrators and anyone else attempting to combine their creative endeavors with how they get a paycheck. In 2023, I only released one episode of Perceived Value. I have joked that the podcast has been my longest relationship and I was kind of a shitty girlfriend this past year, but honestly I needed to work on myself to show up in this relationship better. So, you know, I've been on a serious glow up as the kids like to say. This past year, I quit drinking. Now, I haven't really talked about that a whole lot on the Internet, certainly not on the podcast, but I did. And January 2nd marked one whole year. And the thing is, I didn't realize quitting something which could take up so much of my focus and energy because it simply wasn't just the act of not drinking. It was going through alcohol withdrawal. Dedicating time to moving my body because I felt like a maniac. Spending more time with my friends, making new friends that didn't center around, drinking together and prioritizing my family and definitely prioritizing rest. I read a lot this past year. I learned about personal finance and investing. I spent a lot of time focusing on budgeting and raising my credit score. All of these things that are only going to make me better at the work I do and will lead to possibly sharing on the podcast. Who knows? And something I did in 2023 that felt really good is that I started to dream again. I started to think about my future and really think about my next five year plan. And if you beat a listener on the podcast, you know, you know, I love a five year plan. I think they're fantastic. So all of this to say that I am very proud of the year that I have had. It was transformative, but unfortunately it didn't involve the podcast much because, well, I did as much as I could. And isn't that all we can do? I did record a few interviews last January, delightful conversations that although it is embarrassing to be releasing these interviews a full year later, I decided not to let my ego get in the way of sharing these insightful stories. And I did. I checked in with my guest for today, and she is still okay with me releasing this very old recording. But she did want me to note that some aspects of our conversation maybe do not reflect the present day, and I get that a lot can change in a year. I changed a lot in the past year and I'm just thankful that my guest has been patient and is still allowing me to share this recording. I am currently at the PENLAND School of Craft in North Carolina, which I have mentioned many, many times on the podcast. It feels like coming home, but this time I'm in a very different capacity. I am the Andrew Glasgow resident, which is a two week residency designed to give writers, scholars and storytellers the freedom and support to write their stories, conduct research and interviews on topics all designed to advance the field of craft. I am the first podcaster to receive this honor, and a big aspect of my time here is reconnecting with perceived value, thinking about how the podcast will play a part in my life in 2024. During my very precious time here, I have scheduled a brainstorming session with my mentor. Her name is Sarah Letcher, and we met 13 years ago when I took a beginning middle class in Seattle. I went on to apprentice with her for three years and she has never, ever stopped mentoring me and I have never stopped reaching out to her for guidance. Hence the brainstorming session. Do you have a mentor? Have you thought about it? You might have one, and you just have never put a title to it. I think being a mentor is not really a position you can apply for. And I mean, yeah, you can ask somebody to be your mentor. I have a mentor. Mentor relationship is often something that can't really be forced. I think it needs to develop naturally. A person's mentor is someone who gives them help and advice over a period of time and especially help and advice related to their job or creative endeavors. Based on my personal experience, today's guest is someone I assume has mentored many individuals. She is responsible for offering me my first paid gig as a podcaster, and she also helped guide me through the contract negotiation process to host the American Podcast Series. We do talk about it in the interview. Do you not worry? She's taught me a lot here and there. And so I'm fairly certain Gwen Root and Brad Smith might not realize I view her as a mentor. But I absolutely do. I hold her in high regard. And after this episode, I hope many of you will as well. Gwen Brooke and Brad Smith specializes in craft community engagement, working at the intersection of craft and entrepreneurship. Originally trained as a hot glass artist, Gwen ran a glass business for seven years before moving solidly into the Arts Administration side of the craft field. Gwen served as the first Vine crafts curator for Houston Center for Contemporary Craft, the executive director for a handful of organizations, international Society of Glass, bead makers, handmade in America and the Society of North American Goldsmiths. Which is how I came to know Gwen. She has worked with both rural and urban communities, teaching her professional development and entrepreneurship workshops across the country over the last 20 years. Gwen believes in helping artists and small business owners expand their markets and create sustainable businesses. She currently serves as a business coach for creative based businesses. Lives in Asheville, North Carolina, with her husband and three dogs. So please welcome today's guest. Gwen Brooke and Brad Smith. No, I know what I literally put those earrings on for this recording, and I was like, Sarah, I actually realized I left the house without earrings. And then when I put this on, I was like, Oh, I'm glad I did. Yeah, I didn't mean to, but I always have to take off my earrings. And I was like, Sarah, why did you put on those very big earrings to put headphones over them? That's silly, but. Yeah. Hey, Gwen. Hi, Sarah. How are you? Oh, you got really quiet when I finally started talking to you. Your little waves shrunk. My little wave shrunk. I hopefully bring it back. Yeah, that's funny. I'm sitting in Asheville, North Carolina, with Gwen and Brad Smith, and when I was writing the outline for you, I realized after how many years and knowing you, I finally know how to spell your middle name or your. Yeah, I mean, my second. Your name, your second life. My first last name. Your first name. Yeah. I always went ah you c k and I was like, are you Ken Brody. Look at me. So what's really fascinating side note before we get started talking about other things, is that Andrea, my new boss at the American Council, asked me how to actually officially pronounce Brooke and Brad, and that's a good one. We had, like, I had to call my brother. I was like, How do you say it? And I was like, How does my nephew say it? And then I called my cousin. I was like, How do you guys say it? Yeah, I'll say it differently. Okay, so how do you say it? So my brother and I say it like rock, like a chest rock broken. Brad Oh, rock. Yeah, okay. Yeah. But some people say rock and Brad I'm a rock n broad and some people say rock and broad. Oh, I've never gone there. Yes. So I don't know if there's a bad way to say it, but at least my brother and I say it the same way. Okay. So Glen Rock and Brad Smith. Yes. Okay. And can you introduce yourself to listeners in terms of what you do and what you where you live full time Absolutely. So I live full time in Asheville, North Carolina. I'm lucky and privileged to be in this beautiful space that has not only a beautiful environment, but really celebrates craft and art and creativity. We've been here 12 years, which is now makes us an official Asheville Inns and we officially this is our home, right? I am the currently I'm the senior director of programs and partnerships for the American Craft Council. Okay. And so how long have you had that job? So I actually just started that job. I was hired officially August 8th part time, and then I started full time on October 1st. Oh, and full disclosure, you guys, I reached out to Gwen last year when I was thinking about leaving my job and trying to, like, manifest some other work. And you're somebody that I in snag society North American Goldsmiths. When I first met you, you were the executive director. And what always struck me was just how approachable you were and how, even though I felt the first time I met you, was such like a small little moment. You still remember do I was in my name. And so of course I was like, I'm going to email Gwen and ask her advice because I'm going to pitch myself to the American Craft Council. And it's so funny you didn't say anything in the email and you're like, Yeah, set up zoom. And then within moments you're like, So funny thing, I'm working for the American Craft Council, right? Yeah. At the time I was doing contract work for them. Yeah. Yeah. So that was just funny. Well, congratulations on the new position. Thank you. And listeners, when Gwen walked in my door, the first thing is that I was like, So how many jobs do you have now? Because the thing I know about Gwen is that you are ambitious and you do a lot. And at times I'm like, how many jobs can you hold at once? Yeah, that's a good question. I, I get very passionate about the jobs that I do, and I love doing what I'm doing. And because I don't have children, that it causes me to have focus my attention other places. I mean, how you able to actually do the jobs that I'm passionate about and I'm lucky enough to get paid to actually do the things that I love, which is pretty amazing. And not everybody gets that honor and privilege to do that. Yeah. So I thought about speaking with you. I've wanted to interview you for a long time and I was very adamant that I had to be an in-person interview. So thank you for your patience with me. You're welcome. Thank you. Like, no, we're not doing a remote recording together. Absolutely not. But as I go back to Philadelphia from my journey in Florida, I'm thinking really hard about what I actually want to do. And my mentor May. OG mentor Sarah Lurcher jury is still mentoring me and I've been sending her jobs that I'm thinking about applying for, and she's been really good at saying, Does that align with what you want and what your ultimate goals are? So I really wanted to talk to you because you've held so many roles, many that I would aspire to be in in some way. And so to begin our conversation today, can you give kind of like a timeline of all the jobs that you've held? I don't know if we have enough time. You know, so this is going to be the Reader's Digest version because we'll kind of jump back. Let's start by where what if you went to school and if you have a degree, let's start there and then go to the first job right out of college. Okay. So, yeah, I went to both undergrad and graduate school. I graduated my undergraduate degree is I have a bachelor's of science and allied medicine. That is funny. I would have never guessed that. Okay. Okay. And then I went to grad school to get an MBA. Okay. So why the undergrad in the medicine? What is it called again? It's allied medicine. What does that mean? It's kind of like health and community wellness. It's being proactive. It's not fixing. When people are sick, it's more about kind of implementing programs and helping people prevent to get sick. And so like a lot of the classes focused on like physical health and like nutrition and that sort of thing, I actually wanted to be a physical therapist. That's really what I thought I was going to go to school for and then graduate and go to physical therapy school. So what in that time made you switch to getting an MBA? So my first job out of undergrad, and I guess I would say my first job in my path or my field. Right. Because I worked in cosmetics at Marshall Fields when I graduated from college, like that was really the first full time job that I had outside of kind of being done with school. Yeah. As I got a job as a chemical dependency counselor to HIV positive heroin addicts at a methadone maintenance clinic. That's a heavy job. It was a very heavy job. How old were you? 23. Also, real quick. Did you have student loan debt when you graduate? I did. Okay. So is this like grad school? We got to get a job. We got to get in. Okay. Yeah, you could defer it. You know, you can defer your student loan. So I can defer it for I think six months is what I deferred it before I started paying it back. Okay. But I graduated with about 11,000 in debt, which wasn't bad. I went to Ohio State and I lived in Ohio. So state grad school is super cheap. Right. Compared to a lot of grad schools. So you get a job at this methadone clinic? I do. And I work with HIV positive heroin addicts. I teach them safer sex techniques. I am a chemical dependency counselor, so I help them with their addictions. And yeah, it was really it was I grew up very much in a privileged bubble. And this was the first time I got experience with homeless people, people, you know, who are coming out of jail, women who are transitioning from jail, trying to get their children back like this. I was exposed to things that in my kind of very privileged bubble of childhood, I was never really exposed to. You would read about in the news, but you write. I even remember once my mom saying to me when I was home, she's like, I just wish she would get a job with like a community of better people. Like, she just felt like working with heroin addicts was just not, you know, it was like I was above it or something. Right. I think it did the opposite. It really humbled me and took away the kind of that like bubble of naivete and really made me realize how much it was. My life mission is to help people no matter what job it is that I have and what I do. And yeah, I was making a difference, but it was a really hard career. 23. Was that in Ohio? It was. It was in Columbus. How long did you last in that job? I was there about a year and a half. Okay. And then I moved on to another job still in the HIV field, Red Cross. So I ran there. HIV AIDS, statewide education, like training the trainers. Wow. So, yeah, which was really fun. I did that in high school. Did you really? Yeah, because I was part of something called Project Hope, which was basically low income. My mom was handicapped. So basically if I donated X amount of hours of service, I was going to have X amount of money guaranteed for college and A and I gravitated and I worked in that. And I remember in high school that was a thing where I was like an educator on HIV, AIDS prevention. Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. Yeah. Yeah. So you're doing this work and you transfer to a different job. Did you transfer to that job because it was better pay or maybe just a little less intense? It was better pay. I had been I had been at the methadone maintenance clinic. It was called Comp Drug for a year and a half working with like I was grant funded position. Right. And the position at the Red Cross came up and I was like, well, I should apply and see if I can get it because it was about 6000 So I was making 24 at the methadone clinic and it was 30. And so I felt like, you know, oh, that would be a little nicer to have that. And then I thought the idea of traveling around the state to train was like exotic, like, oh, I can travel and go to these different little towns in Ohio Little did I know that, like Lima, Ohio, no offense, Lima. Not that exotic. Not that exotic. Yeah. Can I ask what time, what year was this around? So 94. 95. Okay. So 30,094. 95 still doesn't seem like that much. But in high Ohio, maybe goes farther. It was I mean, Columbus was extremely affordable city to live in. So I think. I was 450. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah. So what after that? So that's when I decided to go to grad school. Do you? Okay. And you went to grad school? Did you feel stuck or did you like really? I wanted to run a social services, like they're a nonprofit. And that's why you went for the MBA? Mm hmm. I dream about someday getting my MBA. It seems like. I don't know. I think life. You can get your MBA through life experiences. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. But if I had done it again, I think I would have been an MBA all the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where did you go to get your MBA? Ohio State. Oh, same place. Same place. Oh, I didn't go very far. That's so funny. Yeah, but that's why. For grad school, too. State school. And so my. Now, that was very minimal compared to what a lot of grads. Right. And did you were you responsible for all your school costs? I was for grad school, yes. Yeah. Yeah. That was just not my parents were clear about is they helped with undergrad, but for anything after that I would be responsible for. So I've got, you know, student loans and then I worked three jobs. Wow. What did you graduate? What in terms of student loan debt? What was that like? So. Yeah, about 11,000 in student loan debt. Oh, again. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. A different level. I didn't, you know, same I did not have any undergrads debt. I only had grad school debt. Okay. Okay. Yeah, that's really good. Yes. So you get your MBA and what when you are going through this program, etc., did anything shift in terms of what you thought you would do with that degree? Well, my mom died. Oh, yeah. So in the middle of my second year of grad school, she died unexpectedly. Yeah. How old were you? I was 25. Oh, yeah. So is a 96. That's close to the age my mom died. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And as you know, it just is a life changer. Right. So I actually dropped out of school. Yeah. And kind of did what? You know, I always have been a little rebellious and wild, but because my mom was such a big figure and I respected her so much and value that relationship, I kind of kept a lot of that, like, down it underneath and inside. Yeah. And so when she died, I kind of went through kind of my own life crisis, trying to figure out who I wanted to be and who I could be because I didn't have kind of this dominant figure of a parent in my life anymore. And I'd have to please I'm a people pleaser, so I wanted to please my mom. So a lot of time I wouldn't put all black on or paint my nails black because she wanted me and pink and I knew would make her happy. Right. So. Right. You know, a lot of that. And the goth kid that were paying, you know, go figure. Yeah. I kind of feel the same way about like when my grandma when I lived with my grandma. Yeah. She dictated a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And while it wasn't necessarily domineering, I had so much love and respect and wanted to please her that, you know, I did that. So not having her in my life kind of made me had this moment of. Wow. I can be who I want to be, what I feel like I want to be. And at the same time, I also met a group of people that kind of showed me that, you know, I don't this again, this very protective conservative ish privilege bubble I grew up in in Cleveland. Yeah. They just showed me there's other ways of them wearing like button up polo and khakis. Right? Right. The Goth crowd. And that's kind of I've always been pulled toward that. And so it's awesome. I mean, a big mindset. It's huge mindset. I mean, at my first concert in high school with Dead Kennedys, but I had oh, my God, really? The other was. But it's so cool. I didn't know that about you. You just got so many more points. Oh, is so yeah. So, you know, I had to kind of like do the the like the passive punk, you know, gossiping. But once my mom was gone, I kind of went through a period where I met a group of people, I dropped out of school, I bartended, I actually managed a VIP lounge for a nightclub, which was actually really fun job, weird side know. Yeah. Ferrigno paid me $500 to bench press me one night at the club. Wait, who is that? He's the Incredible Hulk. Why is this in Columbus? It's in Columbus because the Arnold Schwarzenegger bodybuilding contest was always. Oh, my God. So they came to the nightclub when I ate. Yeah. So it just strange. I feel like my life has always been, like those weird kind of moments of, like. Who would expect that? Yeah, yeah, totally expect that. So when you say you dropped out, did you drop out of grad school for a little while? I did. She died. Yeah, I took about eight months off and then, you know, finished up and met a guy who was running the glass program at Columbus College of Art and Design. Okay. And he said to me when I met an American when I was teaching at Anderson Ranch, he lives in Chiang Mai, Thailand, and he wants me to build a glass shop. Do you want to go with me? You know, you're kind of you. This was kind of in-between while I was still kind of not back in school floating around. And he said, Why don't you go with me? You're working in a nightclub, take time off and just come hang out with me. I was doing a lot of studying of Buddhism at the time, and that's the main religion of the country of Thailand as well. So I said, sure. And my roommate said she'd watch my dogs. And so I went to Chiang Mai, Thailand, for three months. And that's actually where I learned to play glass, which is really kind of a crazy story. And this is all in that same period of being dropped out or is is post-grad school, post grad school. So you have that degree burning in your pocket and you are just figuring things out. Yeah. Yeah. So then you go there, you learn to blow glass with this man. Yes. And you come back? Yes. What did you do when you came back? I got a job as the assistant curator of the National Hi-C Glass Museum, which was a press glass factory out in Newark, Ohio, which is about 45 minutes east of Columbus. And they were open. They operated just for a short period of time. And those museum kind of honored the history of that press glass. And it came with a hot chop. So I had to like blow glass and do demonstrations for tours and stuff like that. Okay, hold up a second because your title has curator in it. You have no experience previously with that. And as somebody who is like saluting LinkedIn and trying to get all this insight about people's experience and how that like relates to the jobs that I'm trying to get, that makes no sense to me. Like, did you have a connection somehow? No, I didn't. You just apply. I did it. I think, you know, I've always not let job descriptions and like desired requirements limit me to putting myself out there and trying to get a job that I want. So. Okay, but how do you get through the absolute fear that you'll get hired and then you can't rise to what is expected of you? Oh, I always have that fear. Like I live in that fear. Oh, my God. Can we just, like, have a slumber party and, like, me show you all the jobs that I'm looking at and the requirements? Also, I feel like the language in terms of the requirements and how they describe things that you they need you to do is very MBA ish, I guess. I don't know how to describe it. It's very quiet. And so when you're non-corporate, I keep thinking to myself, maybe I should just hire somebody to look at job descriptions and then look at me and say, No, no, this is what that actually means. And you can do that. Yes. Yeah. And like. Okay, okay. Okay. So you you get hired for this security system. They do. In a glass company. Okay, go on. So, yeah, so that's what I did when I came by. And then from there I got a position as the studio director of a Public Glass Access studio in Columbus called Glass Access. So how long did the curator position it? I was there a little over a year before I applied to the glass exit and got the glass access position. So you chose to leave? I did, yeah. Yeah. Okay, yeah. And what would you say your biggest skills from that were like? What did you get from that? So I think, you know, the fake it till you make it kind of like mentality and that, you know, the reaction you had about how did you apply to be a curator with no experience. Experience? I have no art degree. Yeah. I've always been artistic but never have. You know, I don't have any kind of art, has I never even took in our history class. Right, right, right. And formal academic training. And so yeah, I just I it was glass I was passionate about, you know, continuing my journey and learning how to blow glass. And I really wanted to like, you know, be around glass and to be in the creative field. And I, I think in Thailand, I realized while working with HIV, AIDS and like chemical dependency was really a great thing. I was like, Oh, I think I want to move into the arts. Like, I've always been artistic. My parents would not let me go to college for art degree. They were one of those like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, my mom's like, it's just because I don't want you to struggle to make a living. And then, of course, I. My first job, I'm teaching, you know, men how to put condoms on to have safe sex. And she's like, Oh, my God, that's not what I do. Yeah, that's not what I meant. So, yeah. So, you know, I think I'm just saying, like, you know what? I have faith and belief in myself that if I don't know how to do this, I can learn and teach myself how to do it and get that skill set. And I think, you know, just deciding that I wanted to move into craft and glass in particular, which is where my passion was at the time that yeah, I just like, you know, I just got to put myself out there. And there was plenty of jobs I applied for for nobody responded. But right. You know, one, that one I got and that helped me get the job at CLASSE Access to run a public you know, access studio, which was really great because I got pretty glass time. So I started my glass business and I ran, you know, made work and sold it wholesale and retail and did some of the festivals and fairs around the country and worked at that public access studio for a while. And then the struggle for money was real. Then the struggle for money was real. Where was that studio? At the glass axis is in Columbus, Ohio. Okay. So we're still in Columbus. Still in Columbus. We're still living our life there. Yes. And so you say the struggle was real because the job, I'm sure, gave like it was 24,000. Right. And then on top of that, you're I'm the studio director. Like, I'm like acting as an executive. Oh, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, you know, my my glass business, maybe eight grand a year it, you know, needed and stuff like that. So yeah, 30 still was not just not sustainable. How old were you around that time, do you remember? I do. So I was 28. Okay. Yeah. Late twenties are doing a lot for late twenties. Yeah. Yeah. So then when did you get burnt out on that notice. I didn't say so. When did you transition out. It's, it's not now. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Weirdly, I realized that with kind of my schooling with MBA school and really having my dad was an entrepreneur, ran his own business. So I grew up kind of in this entrepreneurial mindset family. And so I realized that early on that working in the arts, like while I loved the making, right, I by no means was as talented or creative as a lot of other are there. So the reality of where I was going to take it was kind of like not very far right. And then I really struggle because I my brain is 50% right and left brain, so I'm evil. So the logic kind of reasoning side really gets in the way, the creative side and I have this natural ability and kind of knowledge and understanding of like business skills. So I was like realized that I could really move into being part of running our town men running nonprofits being part of that. And where my skill sets really kind of allow me to be creative, but not in the making sense. And I also fell in love with somebody who wanted to dedicate his life to making. And that's really a hard for to to people to like sustain a life in making only. So yeah, so all those things kind of led me to really shift my focus away from my own making and fully into like our dad jobs So what was your first big arts admin job? So again, talking my way through a job that I'm really not qualified for. Yeah, this is really what I need. I mean, this is the truth. I was the very first fine craft curator at Houston Center for Contemporary Craft. Why? Yes, I had to hold in how loud? I wanted to see that end. Like no shade to you, but not shade. Matt, I get it. I know masters of art history. No curator. I mean, I worked as a curator. You know, I worked as a curator to different museums before and that sure time, which taught me some things. And, you know, I understood how to like install shows and, you know, best practices and handling art and that sort of thing. But I just really didn't have the formal training that a traditional curator, any museum would, you know, be sure to have. But yeah, I, I talk my way through that interview and they were crazy enough to hire me. Okay. So question here, because when you think about how many people graduate and want that job and are doing all these things to get it right, grad school, to write, internships, etc., what do you think put you above somebody who had did all those steps that they said you had to go through to get that? Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, I think. Certainly I worked really hard. I studied a lot before I went in. I did a ton of research on the exhibitions that they had in the gallery, and one of the questions with the board member and the executive director was walk us through the gallery and talk about the work. So like I was like, Oh my God, I can do this. Like because I studied it and I prepared for it. And I thought to myself, like, these are the things you need to do. You know, when I've interviewed for lots of staff for, you know, my career and when a staff member comes in and they really haven't done their research on and training and understanding of the organization that they're applying for a job for, you can tell, right? So I think doing that research and learning as much as you can and really being able to talk, I was able to talk about previous exhibitions that they had because they had an exhibition manager before they decided to move in to having a curator. So I was able to have those conversations and go through that interview with the knowledge that sometimes maybe people who feel like they've got the formal academic training didn't need to actually do the research to really prepare for that interview or that whatnot. So I think that's probably what put me above. I think they were really fascinated by the way I talked about the work, and I think it's because I don't come from that formal training that my perspective might be a little bit different. Interesting. Yeah. So you get hired there. So is that what gets you out of Ohio finally? It is. It takes me down to Houston. And I was like, when do you get out of Ohio? I mean, I remember in, you know, moving to Seattle when I was 23 or 22, I just needed to get out of Iowa which, by the way, people Iowa, Ohio, not the same places I'll say it until I die. That's not the same people get. I'm so confused. And did your partner go with you? Yeah. Well, not at first. So Matt and I had bought a 1920s warehouse building that used to be an old ice house in a suburb of Columbus. And we had spent the last couple of years I say we he really did it. He had spent the last couple of years doing the renovations and the job in Houston I got before we completed those. Okay. So he stayed behind for nine months to finish the renovation so he could get the building on the market. And of course, it's a commercial building that one on the market in 2008 crash. Oh, so you guys didn't really make a profit? We didn't sell it. We end up having to do a like a long term lease. Okay. Do you sell on it? No, we don't. It sold in actually 2016. Okay. Did you make a profit then? We did. Okay. There it is. How did that job go? Can you can you talk about what was the hardest aspect of it? Because you just signed on for a really big curatorial job. It must have been a hard transition, you know, running with like what I used to say, I could never run with the big girls like the real curators, right? The ones that were at the Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, that have like their Ph.Ds and, you know, the ones that are at the Museum of Art Design. Like, I always joked that I couldn't run with the big girls, but I did my best. And I think the hardest part of that job was just educating myself. I just I just read, write and read. And I asked people like, what are the top five craft books you would read? And to understand kind of the history of craft. And I had to do it in a very short period of time because when I started three Weeks in the Craft in America exhibition that was created by Carroll Sorvino and Joe Lauria, and it was a traveling, major traveling exhibition with like 480 objects. Oh, gosh, from major master craft masters. I needed to know the history of every single one of those artists. I needed to know their background, their, you know, what they made, how they made it so I could give tours and talk about it. And so I had to install that show in the first three weeks I was on the job. So that was by far that quick, fast, really intense learning experience. Now, this might not be a pretty question to ask, but do you feel that there was any resentment from your peers because of your lack of maybe training that they had gone through? You know, that's another great question. And I'm sure that there probably maybe was. But you didn't feel. I didn't feel it. That's good. Yeah. I mean, no one likes to talk about the ugly parts of things, but yeah, I couldn't help but probably feel if I had. I remember I did like a, a visit at UGA and it was talking about I got invited to tour and talk about maybe going to grad school there and I went to dinner with the grads and I remember when somebody asked me where I went to undergrad and I said I didn't have a degree. You should have seen the looks on their faces. And I don't I don't blame them for that either. Right. Because we're told we have to do these things to get certain things. Yes. Yeah. There is this kind of chosen path of how you make your way in the craft field or the art world, which I haven't done The singles don't have any high, so they're all right. So yeah. So I think that it probably was there and I was probably naive enough or just didn't pay enough attention at the time to see it. Yeah. How long were you in that role? I was there, too, a little over two and a two and a half years. Would you say that you enjoyed it? I loved it. You did? I did. Why did you leave? So a couple. There was a couple of reasons, but the main one was my Matt's mom. We had gone we got married before I moved to Houston, and that's mom got diagnosed with Alzheimer's. And they live in Hilton Head, South Carolina. So we wanted to get back into the south east area to be closer to help. And so I started looking for jobs kind of in the area of Savannah and Asheville and, you know, kind of surrounding Raleigh, those kind of areas where you end up landing and Asheville. I said, this is the move to Astro. To Asheville. Yeah. I became they had the talk about like talking your way into a interesting position that you qualified for. Here we go again. Let's hear. My theme is that I became the executive director of Handmade in America, which was a community economic development organization that grew economies through craft in small towns of western North Carolina Okay. Yeah. Executive Director. Yeah. So that's the first time you get that, that title. Yeah. Okay. Which is cool. And what was the focal point of your role? Because when I think of director, I think of development, finances, etc. and vision for the future. Yeah. Well, so the role of an executive director is really to oversee the complete operations of a nonprofit and is the main liaison between the staff and the board. And so at at hand me coming in as an executive director. I had been an executive director before of a tiny nonprofit arts nonprofit that ran art camps in the summertime for kids. Okay. So I had done been that. When did you do that? That wasn't on the timeline. It was not on the timeline because we kind of fast forward to Houston. So two years and a few jobs. Fair enough. Fair enough. But so yeah. So at handmade in America kind of the it was founded by a woman named Becky Anderson who actually weirdly lives in the neighborhood next like one street over for me and south Asheville right now. And I recently ran into her at a restaurant we had it was kind of nice because she's the founded handmade she had left and the director that they hired after her was there about 22 months and didn't work out. Mm hmm. So they I was their third director. And, you know, I had friends in town that I had talked to, reached out to and asked, like, you know, tell me the deal about handmade, what's going, you know, what kind of organization is it? And they really brought me in to rebuild a business model and fix kind of their financial broken model that wasn't working for their a 90% grant dependent organization. And is that a bad thing? It is about that sounds like a bad thing. It is bad thing because if those grants go away, then you have nothing. 2% of funding. Right. Okay. I don't even have an MBA and I could see that. So, okay, so they bring you in and then you're pulling on your MBA background pretty hard, I'm sure. I'm intensely. Yes. Yeah. And maybe those are muscles. You haven't really stretched a whole lot. It had been a while. Yeah. Was that intimidating for you? I actually when I'm given challenges like that, it's not intimidating. Excite me. And I'm ready to, like, jump in and figure it out. And I get really kind of energized by it. I love that. I need more of that. I'm working on that. Yeah. Well, I mean, I just think it's. I don't know if it's it can be a muscle that you develop, I think. Certainly, but I also think it's sometimes just nature. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I say that. But then I moved to Florida to be a combat operations consult consultant, and I never done that before. So maybe I already have doing that. I've thought about it more than you think. You've taken a few of those risks. I mean, I'm jumping into the audio journalism community, so you never know. So you take that job. And how did it go your first year? Um, it was, you know, it was awful, actually. Yeah. I mean, and it wasn't awful in the sense that it was an awful job. It was that that organization was so deep in kind of a really bad cashflow situation that I at the end of the year, December 17th, I'll never forget it. 28, 2011, I had to actually fire all but two staff members. We had nine at the time. I had to lay them all off because we ran out of money and I went on Christmas vacation. We had 1100 dollars in the bank and I had no idea how we were going to like keep that organization open moving forward. So my Christmas vacation, I spent reading 25 master plans for other organizations kind of in the western North Carolina area and identified five that had outline strategies that they weren't doing, but were things that handmade in America services and programs that we were doing right. And I went to them when I came back and I said, if you would fund us, we would do these on behalf of you to help you fulfill your, you know, your goals and your strategies outlined in your strategic plan. I raised $54,000 in a month to do that so that we could pay our bills. I went a month without paying myself a salary. Yeah, it was pretty intense. Like first year. Yeah. And so you do that. And what happened next? Oh, my gosh. I'm like on that my see. Did you make it? We well we did make it. I mean yeah. Fortunately Handmade America closed in 2015, two years after I left. But we did make it. I grew the staff to nine and we grew to over like a $1.4 million budget. And we really worked hard to kind of balance in a nonprofit. Ideally, you get a third of your funding from like grants and a third from fundraising and development and a third from earned income. Yeah. So that's while I had been doing some professional development workshops and traveling around the United States, kind of teaching business skill development to artists for a while that way that's the organization I was able to launch the first craft entrepreneurship program for Western North Carolina, which was really exciting to do. You make so much more sense now. I mean, I, you know, I thought I knew you, but do you ever really know somebody? Yeah. You know, it's a very good question. I mean I mean, I just feel like after all the conversations we've had about your professional life, I just didn't know that. And that seems like something so big to overcome. And yes, I'm sure you acquired so many skills through that experience. Yeah, absolutely I did. And that's where, you know, I would be doing things like I got certified as a Gallup strengths coach and Gallup strengths were invented by a guy named Doctor Clifton. And it's a way to work with a staff to understand your top five strengths. So you know your strengths, you know how you work and you understand how you work. So like my number one top strength achiever, I after listening to my achiever achiever yeah. So like, okay, I am obviously driven to achieve I, you know, really driven. So it's part of who I am, right? And so, you know, I went to Duke School of Management for a nonprofit, you know, for nonprofit pathways to get a certification, understanding how to run nonprofits better. So like I really did a lot of dug in. And then it was economic development, which was a whole world that I didn't know much about. So I applied again this crazy thing thinking like, Oh, I'm the new director of Handmade America. I'm going to apply to the state wide like Rural Economic Development Institute, which was like very competitive to get in. And they only let 40 people around the state to get into this program. And it's run by the North Carolina Roll Center. So I applied and I said I needed a scholarship and I got it and I paid $250 and they paid for my hotel in Raleigh every month when we would go, you know, to do this three day kind of workshop, leadership training. And I learned all about economic development. And so kind of like when I became a curator and craft and I kind of read all about craft. I read a lot of books about economic development. And I think having kind of, you know, the B. Training certainly allowed me to understand the economics of the economic development a lot quicker than maybe most average people who don't have that kind of economic training around economics and money. So I mean, and I relate to that because with podcasting, I did podcasting coaching last year and as I like to take on different roles, I'm really interested in marketing now. And so I'm like, So when you do these certifications and things, do you find a way to tie it in to your hours within your position? Sometimes, yes. Or is it always on the outside? Because I just feel like I'm tired. Yes. And I don't want to work 40 hours a week and then go to school or to get a certification on top of that. I know that sounds. No, I mean, I think it's for me, 40 hours a week would be leisure and I think so. I referred earlier to my very privileged bubble of my childhood. Right. I grew up as a competitive gymnast and I was on the National League team. So I had a very I was competitive, always very busy. I had, you know, balanced lots of things from school to being gymnastics. And then my mother felt it was important that I knew how to play piano and that maybe I played on the field hockey team. So I was more, you know. Right, well-rounded. So that's just kind of been always my demeanor is like 60, 65 hours a week of work is normal for me. And I do like how as you're going through these positions, you're leveraging that position to. Well, I don't know if leveraging is the right word to learn more. Yes. And with those certifications, getting them funded through the organizations that you're learning those skills for to make them better. Yes, that's smart. Yes, I really like that. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And I mean, I've certainly invested myself as well. Oh, yeah. So, like, there's a there's a balance, but, you know, like using be working for a nonprofit to get a scholarship to be part of, you know, the World Economic Development Institute or the ready is what it's called. Yeah. You know, that's that was you know, I just got lucky that they, you know, gave that to me. But you have to ask. Right? Right. You have to ask. You have to ask. I do ask a lot. How old were you when you were at that craft in America? Is that handmade in America? Made in America? Yeah, I was 37. Hey, you're my age. Okay, that feels nice to hear. Yeah, because that is like a very pivotal moment, I feel like in your career, like a really a lot of new skill sets taken on Yes, absolutely. You never stop learning. Okay. Okay. So why do you leave there? I actually got fired. Oh. Oh, yes. Hey, I was terminated. You know what? Not that I'm happy anybody gets fired, but, like, as somebody who's, like, such an overachiever, to know that that happened to you makes me feel like, a little bit better. And so that's a little humanizing of a nice. I'm so sorry, Gwen, but no, I said, why did they fire you? I mean, it's it was a lot of politics and kind of some, you know, things going on. So they fired the executive director before me. And that became a real controversy in the community here. And a lot of funders actually withdrew their funding for handmade. And so the board fired, too. You know, the board fired me and the board fired the director before me as well. And it was more about kind of a it really started with an employee who wanted to go on vacation and didn't follow the handbook. And I said, you didn't follow the handbook and give me notice. And instead she wrote an eight page letter to the board saying things like, I asked her to go like solicit sexual favors for money for handmade in America. I mean, it was really crazy stuff, but it was enough that the board wanted to kind of do their due diligence to see what was really going on. And in the end, it was like a management issue in the sense that kind of they felt that the way I manage the staff could have been improved and better and decided that they wanted to move on to somebody else, which is again. I don't think they were wrong in that in some ways. You know, while I had been a director of organizations and nonprofits before, it was small nonprofits that I was the only staff member. So as an executive director, I didn't manage people. And as an artist, you don't really manage people. And while MBA school teaches you some management, it's not what you learn about management and books versus management with actual individuals, completely different are not the same. So I was 37, 38, and I hadn't really managed a staff. And here suddenly I not only had a staff of six, I think we started with then I had a fire have three, you know, three quarters of them. And then I hired more staff and then I suddenly had a staff of nine that I was managing. And I think, you know, I certainly was burnt out. I was working 80 plus hours a week trying to save that organization. I had a board, though, is disengaged and not really active. Yeah. So I think there was so many things that were broken that I got burnt out. I became a yeller. I'm not a yeller. And I started yelling at the staff and kind of like that self-reflective ness. Looking back, I definitely was busy drowning myself and just kind of trying to do what I could and I was burning out. So they did do a favor and do me a favor. What? The biggest favor they did is before they fired me, they put me on like a 90 day personal improvement plan. You know, the pipes. Oh, I'd never heard of this. Oh, gosh, yes. So a lot of times in organizations, if you've got some kind of performance issues, instead of firing you or terminating you immediately, they might put you on a performance improvement plan and help you get training and education to better those skills or get those skills And so they connected me. Part of that performance improvement plan was to work with an executive coach here in town. Oh, and that was probably one of the most amazing things that it was a gift, it was actually a huge gift. And then actually terminating me became a bigger gift because it allowed me to continue to work with him because they had a contract with him and he called me and he's like, They're not interested in using the rest of this contract and they've already paid it. Would you want it? And so I actually got executive coaching for free is like kind of part of my being terminated. Yeah. In a weird sort of way. Oh, yeah. And then I continued to work with him and pay him myself because it was just it was valuable. Yeah, it was. So let's do that. Coaching. Where did you land like I'm sure that gave you a lot of clarity on like what you wanted next and kind of reevaluated things. It didn't. Absolutely. And I think it is where the clarity came from is I've always been passionate about craft. Craft is just kind of a that's a it's a, you know, no brainer. I'm solidly in the craft field. Mm hmm. What it really helped me understand is kind of what was this skill sets I needed to manage people and what kind of manager I wanted to be, what kind of leader I wanted to be. And collaborative leader is really important, you know, including community that you're like serving the because the nonprofits are sort of service to somebody, right? And then also really understanding kind of a more collaborative management style with kind of staff. So I'm not a big believer like the executive directors, the boss and everybody else, you know, kind of that top down, you know. Right, right. The hierarchal. Yeah. I like the circular one where kind of, you know, the executive director and the board are in the middle of the circle. And then as you move out their staff and then there's the people you serve, community serve, and then there's kind of these indirect beneficiaries from what you offer, because I think that's a little bit more of a kind of inclusive, equitable way to think about, you know, how things operate like on a operational level. What kind of jobs are you applying for? So actually, oddly, because I'm always open to things. So I had actually been in conversations before I was terminated at Handmade with another organization called Wholesale Crafts dot com at the time it is now called Indie Me, but they run an on online wholesale program so that people who own businesses that buy artwork wholesale and then artists who want to sell wholesale can get connected online. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, it's really interesting. It was really interesting and fascinating organization. They also used to run actually trade like wholesale trade shows and they were called echo shows and I was oh yeah ACRE was part of wholesale crafts dot com. I got asked to speak at one of the. It was a few years ago and I got really sick and I had to cancel like the night before, which I don't ever do show because yeah, I got like the flu. I never get the flu. Yeah, I still feel guilty about that if you're listening. Um. So, yeah. So actually, she. They had offered me the job, like, the week after I got fired. Okay, well, that's a nice transit. So that was it. Like, easy transition. Yeah. Although I only lasted there for three months because it was just not a good fit then. Okay, fair enough. And so then you're back on the well. The next job. When I knew. I mean, I, I. So one of the things that I do is I do trust my instinct a lot and I follow my instincts and kind of almost three weeks into the job at wholesale craft, I just knew it wasn't a good fit and I wasn't all right. And I've had lots of jobs throughout kind of this whole history where I've been there like three months because I know real quick it's not a good fit and I'm just not going to be passionate and excited about where I'm working or what I'm doing. And that's really important to me that I had that's part of my, you know, livelihood of how I spend my time. And so I got a call actually a week after I started the job at Wholesale Crafts. I come from Dana Singer, who was a former executive director of Snag, and she said, I just turned in my resignation and I think you should apply. And I said, I just started a new job. I can't like I can't. That's not appropriate. Right. Dropped Trump to another. Oh, my God. I'm such a follower like that. Yeah. Yeah. And so she's like, all right, well, I try. And then because I knew Brigitta Martin and Jim Beauvais, who were also on the board, and Sue Amendola for us, they are all like throughout a period of time started reaching out to me and was like, we think you should apply. Okay. So I applied like the, the day of the deadline, like July 15th, 2013, I applied. So before we jump on the snag journey, I have a few questions. So the going back to this, you said three weeks into that job, your instinct knew. Now, that's something that I'm very fearful of right now, where I'm also just afraid to even apply to jobs because I'm afraid to not be happy again. Like I'm still very I feel like an open wound from my last job I left and how I felt there at the end. How do you I guess there's no way to give advice on that. But just hearing that you knew three weeks in and you left a job after three months being there, I'm always afraid that that will just like looks so bad on my resume or something. Have you ever talked about that in interviews when you move on to somewhere? I mean, I have because of course, people look at your resume and they're like, why only two and a half years on every job that you've been at? And part of that I get bored very easily, right? So if it's not a job that's super challenging, I'm always looking for the next exciting thing to learn and to be challenged by. So for a while, like a lot of these jobs, I was only out for about two and a half years and that became pretty consistent I think, you know, Handmade America was at two and a half years, but I left without my you know, I was pretty committed to that job and pretty passionate about what that organization did. But. I also just can't be miserable in a job. I just can't do it. And I need to remember I've done weird things. Like I worked at Accenture for three months, which is like corporate consulting company, super corporate. I had to take out my facial piercings right to work there. At the time, I was shaving my head, I had no hair, so they told me I had to grow my hair out to work. They really they could do that. They did. I don't know if it's legal, but they did. And so now but you know, at the time I was working at glass axis and running my glass business and I thought, oh, I want to go to corporate and make more money. So. Right. I went to Bucyrus $6,000 instead of 28. Okay. Never mind. Not that much. Not that much. But, you know, thinking that I could climb the ladder, it make. Right. And as soon as I started again working there, I was miserable. I'm just not fit for a corporate environment. It's just not who I am. And it doesn't fit with kind of, you know, the more creative, rebellious side that doesn't want to follow rules, even though there's a part of me that does want to follow rules. So you'll see that kind of in me doing picking the rules I want to follow and the ones I don't which I think probably most people do. But so yeah, the ones when I know it's not a good fit, I, I'm, I don't want to get. Yeah. And I bought real quick. Yeah. I get anxiety about it. Right. What are they going to think. Thank God. Are they going to church or are they going to judge me? And I think people think is like a red flag, like, oh, look at her resume. She doesn't stay there very long. Yeah, yeah. And so when it's been asked, I've been on it. So I think that's a bad thing is I'm always just kind of really open and honest about things. So, you know, when people like and handmade in America they were part of our legal agreement was that they put out a press release saying that I resigned which was really I appreciated that so nice. But I still talk very openly about the fact that actually I was terminated and I was open about that, you know, kind of with every boss and every, you know, I interviewed for Snag. And one of the questions they asked me in the second interview is, what was your biggest failure? Oh, I like that question. What is your biggest failure? And while my answer at the time, yeah, was that I didn't cultivate a close enough relationship with the board handmade in America to make it a team effort to move through that, that organization to try to fix it. That's a really nice way to reflect on that. Yeah. And it was I, I just got into my own little silo of like, I'm going to get this done, going to fix this, I'm going to do this. And you can't do that alone. You have to do it as a team. You have to do it collaboratively and you have to do it as a community. And that is probably one of the biggest lessons I learned, both from Handmade in America. My experience there working with the executive coach and then continued like leadership training and that sort of thing. So, you know, I was really open about it. They knew I had been terminated, not, you know, even though a press release that I had resigned, you know that. Yeah. So yeah. And you obviously got the job because I talked about that in the first few minutes of this podcast. Did I get the job of how long were you at? SNAG Six and a half years. Hey, there we go. Now we're filling out that time. Yeah, right. Um, I know a lot of the story because this is where I come into your life and how I know you. So, yes. Can you share about what your experience was working when you went into your snag? Was it similar and handmade in America where it's like, oh, we have a lot to fix here? Or was it like we're going right along and you just got to steer the ship? No, I joined the organization in October of 2013, and that's where they had they were running out of money and they were going to close And so they part of the again, the reason why they hired me is for the my business acumen, a background and hopes that I could work with the board and the staff to try to turn it around. Oh, wow, that sounds fun again. Yeah, that's like I get anxiety just thinking about that, like starting a job. I mean, like, okay, here's a new mess. Fix it. Maybe I'm a little masochistic. I don't know, but I like a challenge. Yeah. So what were some of the biggest steps you first took and strategy to get it back on track? Really, actually. But I remember before I even started, I spent a day calling every single board member like I'd make appointments and I'd spent about 2 hours talking to every single board member, getting their perspective on what was going on, what was good things about the organization, what things needed to change. I also spent a lot of time on spreadsheets, understanding the financials from years and years ago so that I could really understand trends. I could identify areas of growth or improvement or areas that could like be saved because the expenses that could be saved and that sort of thing. So those were the two kind of prior things. And then the third thing is I got out starting to actually talk to a lot of the members to get their perspective on the organization, to just kind of gather kind of this kind of more holistic picture of really what was. Going on and why Stagg was in the position that I was. What kind of progress did you make? We made pretty good progress for a period of time. And, you know, it was ups and downs, right. I think the main thing we discovered is we understood we gained a great understanding as a board and a staff of why SAG had good financial years and bad financial years. And it was really tied directly to conferences because SAG depended on a third of their income from conferences. So if we had a conference in a major city where 700 to 1200 people attended, we made enough income to, you know, pay our bills, fulfill that one third of profit that you had to make. Yeah, I listened. Yeah. The one third. The one third. Oh, yeah. And so when we didn't have, you know, a conference that made money and those often were conferences in smaller cities that were in the event planning world they called tier two cities. We, you know, so we learned those things and tried to implement those ideas as a board and as a staff grew. The staff, of course, which was really and when I the pandemic hit and a variety of us had our positions eliminated in 2020. Mm hmm. That was one of the most amazing staffs that, you know, was there. And I'm actually still very good and very close with most of them. Yeah, we do monthly or bi monthly virtual cocktails. Oh, that's amazing. And I happen to know those staff members. I think Paramount and yeah. Pretty great. Yeah. So, wow, you're the executive director of Snag Pandemic Hits. I remember because I also had a lot of time and money invested. GV Collective is going to do like a five exhibition event. Oh, my God. It was going to be amazing. Our conference was going to be in May of 2020 in Philadelphia, and it was our 50th anniversary conference. It was going to be, yeah, amazing. And so then one third of that projected income just disappeared. Yes. What happened? Because I. I know that you were let go from your position. Can you give some insight as to. What transpired. Oh, sure. Yeah. Really? Oh, sure. Oh, sure. I absolutely can. So when the pandemic hit and we started really looking deeply at the the finances and what that meant with our cash flow. So in a nonprofit, you can have a balanced budget that looks like you're you're going to like break even. But if you don't have enough cash in the bank account on a monthly basis to pay your bills that come due. Right. You can be a nonprofit that looks on books that you are profitable, but you can have cash flow problems that can eventually cause you to have to close and both handmade in America and snag. That was a situation where it looked like you were breaking even or making a little bit of a profit and our profit and loss and kind of our budget. But in the end, the cash flow, there was just never enough cash to carry through. If there was something that didn't work out the way it wanted to. So if you didn't make enough income around a call for entry. Right. That caused a cash flow problem. If we didn't make enough money around our income, around a conference, cause a huge cash flow problem. All right. So, you know, if we had an extra million dollars sitting in the bank in cash, we could have weathered some of the storms a little bit better than the we did. Right. So when the pandemic hit and I took a look at everything that was going on with that money, I knew we were going to have to eliminate positions. Yeah. And through a variety of different conversations and come to some of the actions that the board made and decisions that they made, or maybe even not the board but more of the executive committee, because I think the executive committee really stepped in to kind of make some decisions and not involve the whole board. And that decision making is and it's I mean, in the bylaws and nonprofit best practices, executive committees do that all the time. So it's not unusual to do that, especially if you have to make quick and fast decisions where you can't gather, you know, 18 people on a board together. So, yeah, that seems like, oh, right. Like herding cats. That can take three weeks to find a date to that. Right. And during the pandemic, things were moving so fast. Right. But basically, you know, the board reacted to the crisis in a different way than I wanted to react. I wanted to jump in. I wanted to start pounding on donor doors. I applied for the PPE loan. Mm hmm. And the board chose to. Not they. They they didn't take the loan. They turned down the loan, which would have given the staff that was eliminated, their positions that were eliminated, another eight weeks of pay. They didn't really want us to ask people for money or to pound on any doors for funding. And I think, you know, different people react to crisis differently. And some, you know, poll like that's just be quiet, let's pull within. Let's kind of internally figure out what's going on and others are more external. I'm a very external person and I was like, Let's go get the whole community together. Let's figure out how to fix this. And right, the board at the time just wasn't interested in that. And so as I was kind of going through and creating like eight different budget scenarios, trying to figure out like what if we eliminate the staff? This is what it looks like at towards the end of the year if we eliminate this staff and I was late at night, one night, probably about 1130 at night that I was doing this and. When the PIP loans came out from the pandemic like they were, they kind of asked you to apply through your banking institution. So some bank got their PPE portals open sooner than others, but we all knew there was a limited amount of money available so that as soon as your bank portal opened, you needed to apply. So we were with Wells Fargo. And so. BBT Sorry. BBT And so the BBT bank portal opened kind of like not until April 9th at 1130 at night, and it was a Saturday night. And I literally would sit on my couch with my laptop and I'd refresh and refresh the baby and t page and refresh and refresh until that portal came out, because they did say I was going to be open in the next 24 hours. Right. Okay. So I had all the paperwork together. Everything's lined up in an hour. After the portal opened, my our application had been submitted, so, you know that I had been working really hard to kind of make sure that we got our application in when we could, that we were being competitive, you know, talking to our lawyers and accountants a lot, trying to figure out what's, you know, what kind of risk we can take, what our bylaws say. And, you know, like our lawyer was like, well, our bylaws at the time at SAG said that we could not go into debt. So the main reason why the board decided not to take the PPE loan is they were worried they were violating the bylaws and they were taking too much risk. And I worked really hard with both the lawyer and the accountant to do a presentation to the board to convince them to take it. Right. Because this is a once in a lifetime like situation. Yes. Like no one accounts for a pandemic. We think about bylaws, correct? Yes, exactly. So the board, all but one voted against taking it. So I'm here kind of a couple of days after this had all happened. I'm feeling very deflated. I'm feeling not relevant because things that executive directors do, they were kind of tying my hands and asking me not to do so. I was and as I was doing a budget snare, I was like, You know what? I don't think they need an executive director. I think what they need is their program staff, because as a membership organization, right, you have to have programs as a reason and a benefit to be a member buyer. Right. So I came up with some scenarios that eliminated my position. And while they didn't take my recommended scenario, which did eliminate my position, but eliminated different positions than what Snag chose to eliminate, they chose to eliminate my position, which was, you know, I understand it and I suggested it and I, you know, kind of, you know put it out there. And I think at first when I suggested it, the board was shocked. Right. They're very surprised. But I feel like you have a responsibility as an executive director for stewarding an organization. So if that means that sometimes you have to make tough recommendations or tough decisions, that sometimes you have to do what's best for an organization over what's best for you as an individual. Right. And I think that definitely was among those situations where I think I was like, this is what's the best for snag? And it was the best for me. I was feeling super frustrated with the board and kind of the way they chose to handle and not like one was right and one was wrong. It just we wanted different things. We wanted to handle it differently. And so I was like, I don't know if I want to go through a crisis with the board. This doesn't want to handle it in the same way I do. I and so yeah. And so they chose to eliminate my position and my position was eliminated at the end of April but into true Gwen fashion. So I just got like weirdly emotional what you're saying. I felt like, like I'm listening to, like, someone talk about their divorce happening or something. I know in a way I wasn't divorce. I wasn't interested in leaving SAG. I love Snag. I love the organization. Some of my best friends still are from that organization. I only think of you and snag like it's like I can't separate the two. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, that's what was funny because one of the things Matt, my husband said to me once, he says he says, I don't think people understand when you take a position particularly like you really take on the persona of the organization and become like you meld together and become one. So like when he handmade in America, when I left there, I don't think they understood the ramifications that would happen with funders, with the community, which was a very similar to the reaction when they fired the executive director before me. Right. And so, you know, the same thing with snag. I think I snagging myself had really become one in the same. And yeah, you know, I eat, breathe and live the job. I love the jewelry field. I love the metals field. My husband is a full time jewelry artist, you know, like, it's just like it's you. Yeah, it was my life. Yeah. And it was really. It was really emotional and tough, but it was the right thing, both for SAG and myself, to to to make that recommendation. Did the board handle my departure communication to the membership the way I wish they did now? But I think it was sloppy and not grades. And I can say that because I was a member at the time. You can I can speak for my self. Yeah. And dang, you know, all I can say about that is that all they did was make the rumor mill just pop off of players. Everybody was like, what happened? And if you would have just been a little bit more clear with the members and outgoing and just handled it in a way it just seemed not great There's I think there's a way to spin a story and create good, better optics, which I was open to. But they, you know, it wasn't my place to tell them what to do. They were, you know, I was leaving. So I let them kind of handle that communication, which unfortunately there really wasn't any communication for probably a month and a half before or after myself and you know. Kristen Yeah. And you know, the interns were all terminated and they, you know, took Adrian as the editor down to a part time. They didn't communicate that right. And then they promoted John Garbett, who was our advertising. Person to direct managing director. Right. Yeah. And so none of those announcements were really made public in a timely manner. Yeah, I think it really. I didn't renew my membership. I think there is something and I really haven't talked about that. And it's like there's nothing no no shadows now, but I just didn't want to. I think it just left something on me. But I think if snack looks at their numbers, I would say that there was probably a big drop in membership, I mean, for a variety of reasons. But I think yeah, I think that left a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths. And I tend to be the kind of person that's kind of like, you know, a board has to get to make their own decisions on how they want to handle things. Yeah, of course. And so whether I agreed with it or not, they made the best choices that they thought they were making at the time. I think Kristen had been was much more verbal about her feelings around how they handled, you know, her termination as well, eliminating her job and stuff and not really talking about it. But like I said, I in February. Yeah, stumbled across the 2020, February, 2020, still going across this job opening. It was 10 hours a week. Okay. For a consultant to run a craft crafter commerce program at Mt. Vis Works and I have some day my retirement job is going to be here in Asheville. I'm going to open a retail store of Made in western North Carolina products. Oh, I can totally see that. So that's kind of like my dream, like retirement, like job, because, you know, I can't not do something. Yeah. Like your retirement, quote unquote. Yeah, I get that. So I was like, okay, well, if I, you know, I was snag. I really decided that I was like, you know, I'm not really interested in being an executive director again right now. For a while I kind of had been for ten years and executive director of either handmade or snag and they both were really broken organizations that needed to be rebuilt. And that's a lot of work. And I was pretty burnt crispy. Yeah. So I applied for the job because I was like, I can do this on a Saturday, you know? Yeah, no big deal. And reconnect to the artists in western North Carolina and that how was I can help train them to be ready for my store when I opened my store. Yes I love like right so yeah. Very intentional, very kind of strategic. Right. So I entered my second interview with them was on March 11th, 2020, and I think it was declared a pandemic on March 16th of 2020, saying so weirdly, as I was going through all this was snag. April 16th, I get an email from their entrepreneurship manager offering me the job. Look at you. So I like the universe aligned. It does. And I think, you know, the universe aligns. Also, though, I think the universe aligns if you're being very strategic and thoughtful and mindful of kind of how you navigate through the world. And so, you know, did I because I knew I had I mean, it was 10 hours a week. It was $30 an hour. It wasn't like it was going to be. You weren't doing it for the money? No. Yeah. Yeah. But I knew that, you know, did I recommend that snag, eliminate my position because I felt confident that maybe I might have another job in my back pocket. I don't know. I don't you know, I think I thought about that because I don't think I thought that job was going to grow to what it was became. Right. But, you know, so I started actually working for them on April 16th and kind of, you know, started training with them and then ended my position at SAG on April 30th, so 2020 and moved into working originally 10 hours a week with them. And then that grew to 20 pretty quickly. And so I was for 20 hours consulting with them, running their craft, your commerce program. And then I started pounding the pavement looking for other consulting gigs so that I could kind of manage it, cobble it all together to how to pay the bills. And that's where you've been until you landed the full time job at HCC. Yeah. So 2020, 2021 and a portion of 2022, I work for three different companies, Flourish and Thrive Academy. I functioned as both a coach and kind of lead facilitator for one of their intensives, as well as helped them develop curriculum for their momentum program that they launched or kind of relaunched during the pandemic. I also then got a contract position with the American Craft Council launching. Basically what happened is their executive director at the time came to me and said, you know, we have this funding from Wingate that supports emerging artist in the marketplace and obviously we're not going to be doing any marketplaces in 2021. So can you help me reimagine how we can use this funding? So who I worked with some of their program staff and Sarah, the executive director, and we created the Emerging Artist Cohort Program and then took it back to Wingate and asked them if they would fund this instead, and they said yes So, all right, we got to launch that and and 2021, which was really awesome. And then we went back to Wingate at the end of 2021 and asked for a three year grant for continuing the program. And so they gave us the largest that was the largest funding grant that the American Craft Council in its 80 year history received. And that is your position. So and that's yeah. Within the position grew yeah. From that yeah. Yeah. So you have like a three year contract with them. So I don't have a contract like a, like a contract with a date with them right now. So I was doing contract work for them and when they hired their new executive director in May, Andrea Specht, I met her and we got to talking and kind of started working together. And then it was in July when she asked me why I never worked full time for the American Craft Council with kind of all my experience. She was surprised I hadn't applied for a position, and I know a lot of people probably also were really surprised and wondered if I applied for that executive director position, which I did not. I mean, I'm pretty sure I asked you and you're like, No, yeah, yeah. That's pretty solidly still. I'm a camper. I'm not interested in being an executive director. I've actually, during the pandemic, had a couple things, like your doctor recruiting firms come to me and say, like, you've been recommended to apply for this executive director position. Would you be interested? And, you know, most of them required relocating. And Nashville is our home. I mean, that's it's really is our communities here. You know, my chosen family of friends is here. Yeah, we love it here. We love our house. We love our neighborhood. It's a nice house, guys. They put a lot of work into it. My husband put a lot of work and yeah, he's very handy. He's amazing. Out, out the man. Shout out to Matt and Dean. Yeah. So, yeah, so did the hustle, the consulting hustle throughout the pandemic and then was able to secure enough funding and kind of help mountain districts feel solid enough in kind of the work I was doing helping loans you know they do business is a community development financial institution are a cdphe and there's 1300 of them across the United States. They were formed in the Clinton administration. Oh, I should look for one near me. There is one that pretty much serves any area in the United States, and it's a really great resource for entrepreneurship, training and coaching as well as money lending, if capital. Okay. I should definitely. Because what happens at traditional banking institutions is they require you to have generational wealth. You have to have collateral right. And something right to get a loan and that. So these guys were formed specifically to offer loans to small businesses that were traditionally underrepresented for, you know, regular banking and financial institutions. So does work. Serves the 26 county western counties of North Carolina. Mm hmm. We focus most of our lending on minority and underrepresented and women based businesses. And then we also have, like, a really robust learning section where you can take different classes to help you kind of either advance your business skills or start your business. And then also, we have a sectors, so we focus on outdoor food and farm and then craft sectors to help develop and do economic development work around that the area. Hmm. I know. I'm exhausted just hearing about it. Quite a journey. Wow. Well, 27 years in the craft world. That's crazy. Are you happy? I am really happy, yes. Do you feel like you're balancing work and life and you? Well, right now, getting. Getting there. I'm getting better towards it. Yeah. Yeah. I told you earlier, I pick a word that kind of guides my work and my goals and the way the kind of I live my life each year. And so my word this year is mindful. And it's really about being mindful of how I spend my time at work, in my work, and then how I spend my time, how to work, not working. And I actually really excitingly just started a really interesting course, like it's virtual core. She said she's like, I'm getting another certification with, Oh, this is all about self-care. It's called Choosing You, and it's being hosted by many immune therapy therapeutics, which is Mave Hendryx, who is an amazing yoga teacher here in town, and also a somatic therapist and play therapist. And so you're learning all about the nervous system and how your parasympathetic and your sympathetic nervous systems work and how of particularly high achieving people, pleasing perfectionists like myself are constantly in this fight or flight chaos space. I can really. So then at some point your nerves just kind of you just feel that burnt crispiness, right? Right. I mentioned it quite a few times through our, you know, journey here and my profession professional path. And so I asked Matt if I could give it to myself for Christmas. And so we meet on Zoom on Sundays. And so last Sunday was the first class and then they released some modules like throughout the week and last week's class. Most of it was a somatic meditation, which was just kind of really a moment to sit still and kind of be with yourself and your breath and kind of really start to feel kind of the things that your nervous system feels when you just kind of are with yourself and you're still. So I'm really excited to kind of move through. It's a six week intensive class and I'm really excited to be part of it to help me kind of rebalance after, you know, the hustle during the pandemic is exhausting. And then my transition from Mount Busy works to American Craft Council, you know, I was not actually actively looking for a job. I'm very happy at Mt. Biz Works. Yeah, but yeah. Andrea came to me and asked me to, you know, develop the job that I wanted at the craft council. And then she gave it to me. So it's kind of, you know, is an amazing opportunity that I just couldn't say no to. Yeah, how could you say no? Yeah. So actually for two months, I worked 70% at the American Craft Council on full time at Mount Biz Works. And that was in August and September of this year. This past year. And. After that, I was really hit. I kind of hit a wall and I was like, Wow, that was just too much. It sounds like too hard. It was too much. It just I just was it was a lot. So, yeah. So I'm moving into better work life balance and I'm actively, you know, doing that through this class in particular. Good. So yeah, I love hearing that. I know. I know you would. I feel like I've learned so much from you and this. Like, I can't wait to really listen to this conversation and take more notes because you've given so many wonderful insights. Gwen Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's exciting to finally be in front of the microphone. I've heard my perceived value for so long. I tell everybody about it. I recommend it to everyone. When people ask like, What are your top five podcasts? You're definitely there. You gave me one of my first, like real audio paying jobs. It was for snag for to record oral histories. Yes. I didn't know what oral history was until I was writing a grant two months ago, but I know what those words mean now. And I was doing it and I didn't even know it. Yes, absolutely. So thank you. You're welcome. And then I also you got to be launched the first six American and Craft podcast with the American Craft Council. Yeah. Oh, you really? Yeah. Both jobs where I felt completely not like I felt so much imposter syndrome in both of those roles. And it's funny, I didn't even put that together. Yeah, you are the common denominator. Thank you for believing in me. Absolutely. And you know, the imposter syndrome. So something that people maybe don't know, but only people who are capable of doing what they're doing. Feel posture syndrome. Really? Yes. It's really fascinating. When I learned that, I was like, wait, what? Wow. Yeah. So it was like, kind of like one of those emojis where the head's blowing off, right? Because it's like, wait a minute. So because I feel imposter syndrome, I actually do know what I'm doing. You want to just change my life by telling me that you realize that, right? No, but that's really great if that's the case. Yeah, because I mean, I'm trying to be a consultant right now. I'm not trying. I am a consultant. And I had to update my LinkedIn to be a business and marketing consultant. I was like, Who the hell do I think I am? Our business and marketing people are a built, built business and marketing consultant. You're also a media mogul. Audio journalist, audio journey. I know. I joined you guys. I joined a group of audio journalists like their mailing list and I'm going to have like an audio journalist meet up in Philly when I get back. And I feel like I'm the outsider getting in on the Cool Kids Club and I can't wait. That's great. That's great. I think, you know, networking, right? Meeting people, talking to people, creating authentic relationships with people. I think that really certainly helped open a lot of doors for me throughout my profession, my career. I mean, if I think if just to the snag story where you know because at handmade in America I was actively involved in like nationally with craft organizations right. And at the time the American Craft Council and craft house that required a martin used to run we're doing these think tanks. I was invited to the think tanks. That's how I met all you know, all these other people on the snack board. And so they you know, I don't think that position would have been given to me if I didn't have a relationship with half the board already. And they, you know, believed in me from the work that I did, a handmade America, that I could bring some good to, you know, help snag. So it I think the authentic ness of the relationship development is important. I think despite the false networking doesn't to me just feel in alignment with my values. So that's not a thing that I recommend. You know, there are people in the business world that like get into that. But I do think being present, meeting people, attending events and talking to people can really open a lot of doors for anybody. And that's really what I love to do anyways. Yes, you're really good at it, too. Oh, thank you all. Yes. Well, we should wrap this up because I keep talking to you. We went twice as long as my podcast told coach told me I should go. But you know what? When a conversation is good, I don't stop and I don't care. Do you guys care? Listening, maybe. I don't know. Gwen. Yes, thank you so much now. You're welcome. Let's jump in. My pleasure. Let's go eat. Yeah, let's go eat. Okay, everyone, this has been another episode of Perceived Value, the podcast broaching the subject of value with artists, executive directors, business moguls, etc. until next time. Perceived Value is a podcast recorded and produced by me, Sarah Rachael Brown. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram as at perceived value streams directly from our website at perceived valued podcast dot com or listen on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play. Just don't forget to rate and review us. Thanks for listening. That was so good. And I thought that with them.