Unknown: Hi. My name is Sarah Rachael Brown. I'm a 30 something year old woman and I live in Philadelphia. I'm a contemporary jeweler and like many others, I am an artist trying to make a living. On this podcast, I'm going to broach the subject of value. I'll be talking to studio artists and performers, educators and administrators and anyone else attempting to combine their creative endeavors with how they get a paycheck. If you're new here, you might not know that I spent three consecutive years living at craft schools, and that is a lot of Kraft School experience. And there hasn't been a year since that. I haven't spent some amount of time at a Kraft School visiting agreement or Penlan feels like coming home and home is not always easy, but it's definitely where your heart is. Or at least that's what they say. When I think about what I gained from living at Kraft Schools, I don't think about the fact that I made shoes, which is kind of mind blowing to me or the hours of dedicated studio time. No, I think about the people. Crouch Schools are an ongoing influx of artists, educators and collectors, and being a constant variable on campus meant I was given the opportunity to create connections with all types of people from all across the U.S. and sometimes the world. These connections have given me some of my best friends in life and a far reaching professional network that continues to support me. That has been invaluable. So why am I rambling on about this? Well, there are a few reasons. The first is that today's episode is the second part of my four part series, Interviewing Dependance School to craft winter residency. Distinguished fellows who try saying that three times fast. And the other is that today's guest is someone who lives in the same city as me, Philadelphia. But it took us going to a craft school in the mountains of North Carolina to connect, which is pretty special. Today's guest is an object, an image maker whose work celebrates the black imagination as a technology of resistance and self-determination. Her work explores the black Atlantic experience through sculptural and multimedia installations that present speculative fictions that reference history. Integrating inspiration from American vernacular architecture, literature and science fiction using original sculpture, found objects, archival media, sound and video. Her process utilizes training in art, history and critical theory, employing the archive and other research methodologies to mine history for use as material in her creative practice. The craft school experience continues to expand my creative community and I'm so thankful that this project connected need to follow. Amy Wilson So please welcome today's guest Penlan Winter Distinguished Fellow Bullish. Amy Wilson. All right. Um. Follow me. Follow me, follow me. That is a very beautiful name. What's your last name? Wilson. Hey, I got that one. Oh, what have you been doing so far today? Uh, picking up supplies. Oh, okay. Yeah, I haven't done any work. I've just been. I had ordered some stuff at the wood shop, and then I had to go down to the store and then. I'm buying a building, so I need to transfer some money. Excuse me. Account. So I had. That's why I was on the phone doing when you came to the building. Way to throw that in casually. I'm buying a building today, so. Well, this is going to be a monumental day for you. It is. No, I'm not buying it today. I'm closing in a week or so. Okay. I've never bought a building or real estate, so I do know that closing is a big deal. Which is like it's officially, officially done, right? Yeah, but you don't officially own it until. And it says we're giving you the money so that you could buy it. And they transfer it and they transfer the money there. It doesn't it's not yours until it's done. That's why they call it closing. You've closed on the deal. Yeah. Yeah. Is that building going to be in the Philadelphia area? Yeah. It's a block away from my house. What? So what is it? Is it kind of like a warehouse? No, no, no. It's a storefront. So my dream is it on Germantown Avenue? Yeah. Yeah. You're getting a storefront on Germantown Avenue? Yeah. That's been my dream. So when I moved to Philly. Mm hmm. You know, I was like, okay, I gotta get a studio, right? And I just have had so many studios, you know, I've lived in seven different states and Europe, so I've always had studios and I'm always moving around. I always make them really nice so that when I leave them, usually the landlord charges a lot more money. Right. And or. I've stayed in a place in the landlord since it sells a building. Or I've stayed in a had a studio in a place and the rent goes up and I'm like, I am so done with this fixing the studio up thing. So I said, Next studio I'm in, I'm going to own the fucking market. It's a podcast, babe. You can do whatever you want. I mean, I own the fucking building there. So I was lucky to find a really great real estate agent who got me and what I wanted to do and what I was looking for. And I said, I want to walk. I don't want to drive to my studio. Yeah. And she found a building for sale a block away. And it's I said I want tenants so that they can help me pay the mortgage. So it's just a two flat. It's got apartment upstairs. Mm hmm. And about, uh. Oh, maybe a thousand square feet downstairs, which is where I'll be. Okay. And so hopefully in about ten days or two weeks. Look close. Oh, my gosh. So I know I knew I don't really know him anymore when I lived in Germantown. There was a blacksmith that had a spot on Germantown Avenue, and it was kind of a storefront thing, too. Mm hmm. Will you kind of block off the window? Like, what will that be like? Oh, I'm thinking just to get started, because there's going to be a little work that I want to do to the exterior of the building. I'm going. I'm looking for someone to share the space who needs, like, a business where they need the storefront window exposure. Because I don't really need that. Yeah, I mean, eventually, maybe I'll use the front of this space for some kind of gallery. Not necessarily for myself, but I maybe I'll have things there. But so I'm looking for like, let's say, a floral designer who just needs a storefront presence, but they don't need a lot of space. Right. They just want a display so that they have some visibility for their business. So I'll probably ran about 500 square feet to someone who wants to share the space just to help me with the mortgage to get started. So I have some funds to fix up the outside of the building in the first year. That's pretty cool. Yeah. So I'm very excited about that. Yeah. Do you know in perfect gallery. In perfect gallery there in Germantown, a lot of like lovely humans I know are very active with them. And I see. Imperfect, you know? Yeah. I'll send you there because they're your neighbors, Lane. I know. Oh, yeah. So where? Chestnut Hill? I'm right near the border of Germantown and Mt. Airy. Okay. A bike just a just a block away is Johnson. Which is the border? Yes. So I'm like a block away. Okay. Yeah. That's a really good location. It's a great location. I was so excited by. It is for you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Follow me. So you are in here at PENLAND. Is this your first time at PENLAND? Yes. My work's been here before and exhibited in the gallery. But this is the first time me, myself and I have been here. Yeah. Did you fly down? Did you drive? I flew. Yeah, me too. Was what was your first impressions of seeing campus? Well, it's beautiful. I mean, the mountains are gorgeous. Yeah, you know, it's lovely. Mm hmm. I mean, I think the three craft schools I've been to, Anderson Ranch, Haystack, and now here, they're all in the mountains. Yeah, those are all. I mean, Haystack is stunningly beautiful. Yeah, it's Maine. Yeah. It's Maine, which is gorgeous. Yeah. You know, but in the mountains up from Aspen. Okay. Interesting. Ridge is also just as beautiful. And I've been Anderson Ranch. I've been summer and the winter. Of course not the winter in haystack. You can't even get up the mountain or nothing. Right? Yeah. But winter residences are nice. They're not quite as active. Yeah, you can really focus on your work. It's a special time. It is a special time. I haven't been to Anderson Ranch. It's on my list. But they don't do tiny shiny. They don't do small medals. They don't. They do sculpture. They do large sculpture, but they don't have a jewelry studio. So it's never really presented itself a good opportunity for me. Okay. But my goal is to go to all craft schools. Okay? Yeah. Yeah. So. PENLAND Winter. I haven't been to a Penlan winter residency either before, and I will agree with you that it is very lovely and quiet and. It's a different pace. Mm hmm. Yeah. When you were at Haystack in Anderson, were you teaching? I've done both. I started. Let's see. Both at Anderson and Haystack. I went as a graduate student. You take classes, and then I went back to Anderson Ranch to do a residency, winter residency. And then I've done residencies at Haystack and gone and participated in conferences there. So I think I've been at Haystack more than anywhere else. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So you got to do the the haystack. Is it in the spring? It's like two weeks. The residency? Yeah, there is. I don't think it is in the spring. Yeah, that's something I've thought about applying, but to go as a journalist. Mm hmm. They do have, like, a scholar or writer residency. So you could totally do that. Oh, yeah. Kind of like here. Yeah, exactly. Just keep doing it. A different kind of schools. Yeah, you can definitely do that. And I think they'd welcome you. Right, right. And they have a wonderful fab lab there. Yes. My friend Arthur Ashe uses that a lot. Yeah, that's really wonderful. And they have really good programs for teens and things. Mm hmm. I lived in Maine for three months in a tiny cabin on an island interning at a gallery. And Haystack was a short drive from there. So. And you never went? No, I did. I did. Because there was a there would be people I saw teaching there. And so I got invited up. And I remember. Do you know the Potter, Roberto Lugo? Yeah, he's in Philly. Yeah, yeah. He's a alumni of Penn State. Oh, really? Yeah. Hey, so I remember this amazing experience being there on the auction night. Oh, really? They must've went crazy for his stuff. They must've. Yeah, like nuts. And there was a moment where he asked us all if we would help him fund a scholarship. And within, I think, like, 10 minutes, like it was funded, a scholarship to apprentice with him or at his. He was I think he teaches at Temple. So he does. It was he's on the board a haystack. So I think it was to fund a scholarship to bring an A person there to haystack for like a summer workshop or something. And we got it funded so quickly. And it was this moment where everybody in the room got super emotional, like Roberta was crying for Roberto. So emotional. I was crying. I'm also emotional, but it was a really beautiful moment. And to get to experience that, I was like, that was classical magic for real? Absolutely. Yeah. And now he's my friend, so. Yeah. So you went to the residency at Haystack and Anderson Ranch? I never heard of Anderson Ranch's Winter Residency. What is what is that like? I'm trying to think how long I was there. It might have. It's been a while. It was right after graduate school when Susan working, who's also a furniture maker, was a the wood coordinator there, had invited me as a Josef fellow. I don't know if it was two weeks, three weeks or six weeks. I can't remember. Now, that's like 2006. So it's been a while and it was wonderful, not as busy as here. Okay. It was wonderful because my friend Wendy Maruyama was in the studio with me and I ended up helping her build something she had for an exhibition. And I got some work done there. Um, and so it was just lovely because there's hardly anybody there. Yeah. And there were just, I think just the two of us with the coordinator in the studio. Wow. And that was it. That's it. That's all I remember. Yeah. What a rock star. I got to meet Wendy very quickly at the Renwick. Did that. 50 years of craft. Yes. And my friend David was in it. So I went to the opening. Yeah. And that was I was trying not to geek out too hard, but everybody I turned, I was like, Oh, you're so-and-so. Yeah. And Wendy is just the sweetest, humblest, funniest person in the world. Yeah. She's so funny and generous and just lovely. So it was really nice. And I had taken a class with her, Admiral Salen, who is an amazing wood turner. Okay. And so I think that's how I first got to know her. Yeah. And then we've been friends ever since, and it was just a lovely time to be there. Yeah. So you're in the Flex studio here at Penlan, which is a nice big room. Hence the name Flex. Huge, huge room. It's got a disco. Ball like a party in there. I did walk in and I saw that disco ball and I was like, That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And you were telling me how you needed more wall space? Yeah. The beautiful textile studio has lovely windows that look to the mountains, but I needed to hang stuff. Mm hmm. Because of stuff I'm working on, I'm going to be hanging, so I need to see what it looks like hanging. So I needed the wall space. So that's why there I had to sacrifice being social with the other textile residents. But, you know, I'm only two weeks here, so I went for it, trying to get as much work done as I could. Are you? I was talking with Lesley Noel that the other day about this, where I am certainly somebody who likes obviously the nature of the work I've come into. I like human connection. I really struggle at Penlan actually being around so many people in the studio sometimes because I just want to talk. Mm hmm. Are you someone who likes sharing studio space, or do you really like having your own privacy when you work? Both. Both? Yeah. I mean, it's nice being around other people because when you're working, it's very solitary. Yeah. And what's nice about residencies, too, is just meeting all the fabulous artists and seeing all the wonderful work that they're doing and opportunities to meet new people and make new connections. And sometimes, if you need it, getting feedback on the work. Yeah. You know, so that's nice. But I'm an introvert, so I would say if I had to lean towards a side of just being solitary and getting the work done, because as an educator, I don't have a lot of open time where every day I'm doing work, sometimes I'm stealing an hour or so or I'm on a train. One thing about textiles, I can kind of sew anywhere. Yeah. So I can bring my little bag on a train or somewhere even. Try not to be too weird sometimes if I'm in a long meeting. Right. But, you know, I don't want to be rude to other people, but. So I guess I lean on the side of being solitary and just focusing on the work because I have so little opportunity to do that. So you're the dean. You said you were dean of one of the docs. Associate Dean. Associate Dean. Can you tell me what that means? So my they're two other associate deans and two other assistant deans, and then there's the dean. I didn't know there are so many assistance to the dean. Well, yeah, there are. At least at my school there are. Okay. And my official title, I'm associate dean of Access and Equity. So my position is new. It's an inaugural position. And my job is basically I rounded out is to make it to help contribute to a culture where everybody can thrive and feel like they belong. So that's kind of my job, which is wonderful. It's not an easy job. And unlike some other colleges that are just about one thing, we have three different schools and five different departments and a museum in a performing arts center. So it's it's a lot. It's a lot. It's so it's a lot. So that's the biggest challenge to my work is and each of those entities has their own independent culture and way of doing things that's different from one another. Right. So it's a bit challenging to try to create or find a common cultural thread through all of them to bring the college together as a whole. Yeah, right. So in terms of being here, is school in session right now? Like, did you have to leave? Yes. School's in session. Unless I was fired. It started January 8th. So this is the first week, I guess. Yeah. Of school. And I have a very generous Dean Anglican. Considering going this thing, this okay. And he said, go do your work. So that's cool. Very cool. I'm a very generous and understanding, Dean. I mean, I'm still checking my email every day and answering questions and setting up things that I need to do my work so I'm not totally divorced or like on a vacation or anything, but I have the space to be here. And, you know, I'm going to take some meetings. I'm not going to take all meetings, but I'm going to take some meetings where it's really important for me to be there. So it's a little bit of compromise, but the balance shifts to my practice being the priority in these two weeks that I'm a fellow. Right. And I and I get that, too, because I started working for myself a year and a half ago. And isolation. Yeah, it's been I mean, it's harder. But the one thing that I always hold on to is I have autonomy of my time, which I don't care how much you want to pay me, I will never want to give that up again. Sure, because I can come here. I work in the morning for myself and then I get to do this with you. Yeah, yeah. And that's really special. So for pending winter residency in this two week period, approximately in the greater scope of a project, two weeks can just be a blink of an eye. Did you have some hefty goals or what was your intentions with your time? I brought with me some work in progress and I didn't necessarily have an end point that I felt like I had to get to. I just felt like I wanted the luxury to think freely without to just shift the priority again. You know, when I'm working at Penn State, that's my job. So that's my priority in my practice is still there, but it's kind of to the side. Yeah. So for these two weeks, my practice is my priority and the work is to the side. So just having that luxury, like the first day I sit up and flex, I just laid out all this work and some of the challenges of where to take it. It just opened up. It just came immediately because the space was in my brain. You know, a lot of times my brain is full with my responsibilities and things that I'm thinking about. Yeah. And. I think as a educator, artist and maker. To me, just having the luxury of space in my brain and saying, okay, today I can put aside the other work. Yeah. It's the space that's the most valuable thing no matter what happens, right. You know, because there's a lot of projects going on at the same time. There's the work. And then I have some upcoming work. Like I, I while we were walking here, I shared with you I'm going to be a scholar in residence in Philadelphia this summer at the Museum of Art in Wood. Mm hmm. And so there's some reading and some research I want to do for that. So I might. I'm probably going to do some reading while I'm here, too, for that. So it's just get the luxury of space in my brain and ways to activate the hand to get going. So that to me, even though I might not get all the work done, the fact that I figured out the work that I want to do. Yeah. Is Major. That is major. Mm hmm. I I'm here as a resident, too, and something I was really stressing about. I love your words. The luxury to think in the luxury of space, because I was really worried coming here that this wouldn't activate that for me, that I since I work remotely, I would still feel in my workspace and this would feel secondary still. And I am feeling that shift where I wake up and this is what I think about first. This isn't your first residency, right? In general? Mm hmm. It isn't. But it is the first residency for this type of work. I've primarily only been awarded them as a jeweler. I see. And where you're making with the hands and you're physically clocking in that time at the bench. Mm hmm. And this feels different because I'm not making a tangible object, and I was worried I wouldn't have my brain when it switch. Does that make sense? It does make sense, I guess, for me, because I've done. Several residences and. I kind of know how to activate the switch at this point. Yeah. In that I could do it at home too. Like if I were on the weekend, if I were working and I felt stuck or something, I might take a walk or go to a movie and just being in another environment. Mm hmm. The switch. It makes it easy. So I know when I'm coming to places that I haven't been before different than I usually am. The opportunity for the switch is there. Yeah. So I kind of count on it. Right. You know, so I expect it to happen. I don't know how it's going to happen or when it's going to happen. It might not happen. Right. But most of the time I feel like I can count on it. I can. I have the faith that it's going to happen and something's going to happen. The other thing and I don't know, can you tell me if you relate to this? You know, we get here the first day. My travel was not fun. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. Turbulence. I get nauseous. I let myself sleep in on that first Monday, I think I didn't wake up until, like, 11. Good for you. And I felt guilt about it. Do you talk to your students or anybody you mentor about this type of thing where we tend to like guilt ourselves around rest? Oh, no, girl. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't know if you know of Tricia Hershey, who has done a manifesto about rest as resistance. I have, yes. Okay. So the guilt thing. No, you can't do that when you need to rest. If your body is telling you, you need to rest, you need to listen to it. Your body is wiser than you are. Yeah. You know, it's. You just need to do that if that's what the body tells you to do. And without guilt. Yeah. I mean, like, what are you actually feeling guilty about? Who are you robbing? You're only robbing yourself. Yeah, you know, who are you robbing? Guilt. Who? What do you guilty about? Like for who? Why? How do you talk about that with students, then? Because I feel like academia is a very high pressure place, or even your position seems very high pressure with expectations. You know, I think what's the the good side of the bad side of the pandemic is that people are starting to value rest. Yes. And value self care. The nomenclature of self care is something new to. Our culture so that people when you say it, people understand what you're talking about in a way that they didn't before the pandemic. So I think if there's anything good that came out of the pandemic, particularly even in educational set US settings, students know to get a teacher to back off like they know now, they may not always exercise their right to do so. Yeah. And some students who are young and are looking at their teachers at as authority figures, you know, in certain disciplines like architecture, they just students. I see them in sleeping bags under the desk. Oh, my God, that's ridiculous. You know, to me, it's kind of ridiculous. Yeah, but I feel like in general that professors are more accommodating now and that there's enough of a nomenclature and an understanding about balance that I think professors are listening a bit more. Mm hmm. And students, I think, are pushing back a bit more, which is good. Yeah, good for them. Yeah, I definitely have. I mean, I've talked about this on my social media platforms and in an interview introduction for a podcast I'm going to be releasing where I did talk about that, where it's like, I am not. I know I've glamorized hustle in the past and how tired I am and how much I worked. And I was like, But you're not seeing that from me recently. And here at Penn Winter Residency, that was something where I've been kind of battling myself saying, Rest just because you're here and you know, you've been giving this gift of time doesn't mean you have to push yourself incredibly hard. Yeah. Yeah. And if you're tired, you can't. Offer yourself very well to others. If you're tired, you can't be your best self. So I think understanding what conditions help you to be the best human you could be is part of your responsibility to others. If you come all ragged and tired and irritable into a space with others, what are you really contributing? You know, you know, or you're guilt tripping yourself or whatever, which is not good for you. So and I guess I'm just at the age where I just don't care. Yeah, I just don't care. I love that, you know? So I think, you know, once you get beyond 50 and I'm like getting beyond 60, there's just. You just don't care. I'm looking up to you. That's I mean, that's fine, but it takes a while to learn how to value yourself. Yeah, it. I think it takes you. You know, it's part of learning how to be a fully human adult. Mm hmm. Is your responsibility to oneself? Yeah. Well put. Have you crossed paths with anybody at the residency so far that you have clicked with or spent time with? Yeah, yeah. There's some people that I've spent some time with. I haven't had much time with my textile folks because I'm by myself and flex. Right. But there are a lot of really good people here who are interesting and do really interesting work. Yeah, but I think, you know, I've walked around a couple of studios and people have their head down doing their work, which I totally respect. I respect it too. And I'm like you. I mean, I'm working in a solitary environment. So I after my interviews or whatever I do, I try to walk through studios and if someone looks up, say hi, but also trying to be mindful that this is their special time. Don't encroach on it. Yeah. And, but still try to remember that for me when I come to a craft school or places like this, it's an opportunity to meet individuals from all over the country or in your backyard, like you say. Isn't it nice I've met you and you're from Philly? Yeah. And I. And I think that's something that is very valuable to me when I go to a craft school, just. You never know who you're sitting next to having lunch with. It's true. Yeah. And it's incredible. Humans from all over come here. So, yeah, I love how, like, the egos somehow are checked at the door here. Like, I feel like I think the craft community is not necessarily. That ego driven? I mean, I think maybe some of the older men are a little like that. Sorry, guys. No, sorry, but maybe some of them are like that. But for the most part, generally, I find as like if I compare the craft community to the. Contemporary art community. Yeah, there's a lot more prima but prima donnas in contemporary art than there are in the craft. And lot of the people that should be prima donnas in the craft world aren't. They're very humble, like, you know, Wendy's. Yeah, I like Wendy. She has every right to be a prima donna. But she's so humble and kind and generous. Mm. That's good. Are you going to go to the dance tonight? Do you know at this time? I know. We'll see. Have you walked down that way? No, I haven't. Okay. Well, I'm going to encourage you take that golf cart down there. Okay. It's the resident artists that place down. Other part of the campus, right? Right. It's so funny. I mean, I walk miles around Philly on a daily basis and I get to Penlan and I'm like, Oh, the Woods studio is so far away, but it's not even a half mile down the road. But if you can pull yourself away to walk through it is a good experience. Sure. Yeah. There's some good people down, I bet. Anything else you want to comment on about your experience at PENLAND? You just we're. You're halfway through. Okay. Not that I can think of. Yeah. I'm so happy you got to come here and have me, too. And that I kind of came out of the blue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When Lesley contacted me and say, hey, you want to come? I was like, Oh, okay. You know, I did have one more question. Are would you identify yourself? I always say, like, how do you identify as an artist? You do a lot of furniture. No, no. I'm trained as a furniture maker, but I use a lot of my skill sets to make large scale installations inspired by vernacular American architecture. Okay. And they usually involve a different kind of media. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So then what do you teach at? So I'm not teaching right now at Penn State. Oh, Mark, it's just in addition. Yeah, yeah, I want to teach, but it's taking. Penn State is a very complicated place. And so I'm just starting my third year there and I just feel like I'm just starting to understand it. Okay. It's infrastructure and it's culture. So I have in mind I want to teach a class, but I just haven't quite developed the appropriate infrastructure and systems for my job to get that foundation set yet that I feel comfortable kind of stepping away from those responsibilities to teach. So maybe next year or the year after, I'll be in a position where I feel comfortable. Yeah. Teaching. Okay. I hope anybody who is in academia, especially the administrative side, in very high regard, because it seems like a lot you know it is a lot. But you're working collectively with people. And fortunately I have a lot of my colleagues are wonderful people. Well, that's good. Yeah. And we have good. Mike Dean is a really wonderful, compassionate leader. Mm hmm. And a lot of my colleagues are good humans. Well, I love that you'll have to keep me posted if you start a podcast. As you mentioned, I'm interested in it, but I'm not sure about that commitment of time. But I keep thinking it's a way to share the work that I'm doing and to connect with others at other institutions that are doing similar work. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, for what it's worth, this amateur podcaster thinks you have a very nice voice for radio. Oh, thank you. I've been told that. All right, well, let's wrap it up so you can get back to your work. Perceived Value is a podcast recorded and produced by me, Sarah Rachael Brown. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram as at perceived value streams directly from our website at Perceived Value Add podcasts dot com or listen on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play. Just don't forget to rate and review us. Thanks for listening.