Unknown: Hi. My name is Sarah Rachael Brown. I'm a 30 something year old woman and I live in Philadelphia. I'm a contemporary jeweler and like many others, I am an artist trying to make a living. On this podcast, I'm going to broach the subject of value. I'll be talking to studio artists and performers, educators and administrators and anyone else attempting to combine their creative endeavors with how they get a paycheck. I'm going to be real honest. Well, actually, perceived value is all about radical transparency. So maybe it's better to be said that I'm going to be real vulnerable. I'm not feeling so great in my current professional life. Things just feel stagnant and I don't know what direction to go. I'm in that unsure space where I need another contract or possibly a role that will give me more stability and money. I'm applying to jobs, but I'm not really inspired by most of the opportunities I see. And if I'm going to let go of my autonomy working full time for myself, any role I take needs to be something that I know I can grow within and feel valued. That's really what I want. I want to feel valued. When I get into the scarcity mindset where I fear I won't find work and will have to deplete my savings just to pay my rent. I want to settle. By that I mean taking a job that does not align with my professional core values or doesn't value my skill set. To be clear, I have been financially independent since I was 18, so I am my own financial safety net. If I have to, I will work whatever job it takes to ensure I have money coming in. I'll work it until a better situation comes along. I do not love transitioning professionally, but at least I'm self-aware. At the age of 38, to understand that I've been here before, I will be here again. And it always works out, usually for the better. One way I've been trying to quiet my brain and my scarcity mindset is by dreaming more, you know, to really visualize my ideal life and how that aligns with my core values. Where do I want to live and what kind of work life balance do I actually want? Forget the 40 hour a week. Forget that you have to work x amount of time, blah blah blah blah blah. Like what if I could choose? What would that actually look like? Because I do really value my work. I like investing in something. I just don't want to feel that I'm investing in something for somebody else and not really getting a return on my investment. As I sat down to edit this interview. I was really inspired by my guest. We recorded this conversation in January and that was months ago, so I had forgotten most of what we talked about, what a gift it is to be in my current challenging mindset, and hear my guest talk about the importance of dreaming big, telling me what his goals are and how he's manifesting the life he wants. I listened back through this interview with ceramic artist Rich Brown multiple times this week, and our conversation was a great reminder that I need to believe in myself and what I'm capable of, especially when I'm dealing not so great about myself or my career. I'm going to share my dreams and really start believing that what I want can 100% become my reality. But I have to believe in it first. I want to be a full time audio journalist, and for years I have wanted to continue learning Spanish and living abroad. Who knows? Maybe this time next year I'll be podcasting in Colombia about my experience in Spanish school. It's possible Clay for Rich Brown is a means of release of life's cumulative journey. Using this medium allows him to convey his spiritual journey through his lifetime, always evolving. Rich focuses on functional, where to connect with his audience. A part of him is embedded in each piece, created with honesty, integrity, and with pure intentions to be experienced by its user creating work that blends harmoniously with the user through a symbiotic relationship. Rich Brown is inspired by the community and the gathering at the table, bringing people together to celebrate the gift of life. The work is created primarily on the will, with the current exploration of coiled slabs and altered work. Focusing on their ergonomics, craftmanship and pairing with food are paramount in the creative process of his work. So please welcome today's guest. Very inspiring to me at this current moment in time. Penlan Winter Residency. Distinguished Fellow Rich Brown. My headphones. I kept plugging them in the back. I thought that's where they go. And he was like, Sarah, that's not that's not where those go. Like, Well, it's been working for me. This is a really great set up. Oh, thank you. Have you ever thought about doing a podcast? Yes. I mean, the ceramics community has it on lockdown, the Brickyard network and everything. I just I really admire that. We have a Thursday night Instagram show called Throwing Shit. Oh, you do? Yeah. And it's been around for about two years. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I'm thinking about doing a podcast. Okay. So do you host the the throwing shade? Yeah, I'm a co-host. Okay. Diane Adams from Sample House. Okay. And so you're thinking about taking it off the gram and onto the the RSS feed? Well, I have a friend and we're thinking about a podcast. That's what we do now with the Brickyard Network. Have you ever looked into that? What could you like? Pitch them a show idea since you both are potters and etc.? Yeah, possibly. I think so. Yeah, that could be cool. We'll talk. You'll give me advice. I honestly, I am always 100% transparent with how I did it. I have a whole document that I send to people with links to all the equipment I have. So yeah, I'm totally down because like you, if I do it, I have to do it right. That's what I'm saying. You can't have us. No, especially from the jump. You got to do it right. You want to come out first impressions, everything. And you know, a lot of people will tell you that, oh, just record on Zoom, it's just as good. No, it's not. If you get distracted by the sound quality, you're not going to listen. Yeah. And I think they're thinking more about. Well, I don't know if they're thinking, no, I don't know. I won't say anything. I know. Like some people don't care. And there's also a really popular podcast I listened to because I am a sound snob in some ways, which I try not to be, that I do kind of I'm always like, really like you have this big a following and this is the quality. Yeah, I just don't want to go down another road because when I get on something, I get on it. Like if you go into podcasting, you're going to do it so much to the point of perfection and acceptance. I have a post-it on the wall downstairs that is, I outlined all the things that keep me from being as productive with the podcast as possible. And one is perfection. It's always the root of evil for me. Yes. Yeah. I'm a bad perfectionist. How are you? A potter and a perfectionist. That's it. Like with Clay, whenever I've worked with it, I'm a metal smith. You know, metal is rigid. I can feel it. I can move it exactly where I want. Clay I just got so frustrated and that's the thing. You'll never beat it. So I've always done different things. And when I started to do pottery, my wife was like, Oh, another thing. Right. But I stayed with it because I can't beat it. Yes. Always kicking my ass. I'll never be. I'll never be where I want to be. Never. Yeah. But I think if I was doing anything, I would never be where I want to be. So, I mean, that's true too. Very hard on myself. Oh, I'm so hard on myself. I'm the worst. When were you born? I'm not into signs like that, but. Oh, I'm June 26, so I'm a cancer. My son, it's the 25th. Oh, really? He's an asshole. Yeah, he's a he's a good person, but he's a he's a nine year old asshole, so. Okay. Well, I have an 11 year old niece and I have the last couple of years have been like rare. So maybe that's it. But he's a perfectionist, too. Yeah. At his age, he knows if he's drawing something. He's always been like that. He knows it doesn't look like. Mm hmm. It's not an exact image of what he's drawing. And he'll start to cry and he'll say he can't do it. And most kids at his age are not like that. Right. Right. They. Everything they do is good, but. Right. Since he was five, it's not good. He can tell that. It's not good at five. Poor boy. Yeah, it's rough. That's a yeah. I mean, it's a that doesn't sound fun. It's not fun at all. I had a mental breakdown when I was younger. My brother still likes to bring this up where I won an art competition and my brother and his age bracket. So were at this place and they had a drawing class in the gardens. And the one premise of it was that the instructor wouldn't let us have erasers. Mhm. So imagine third grade Sarah perfectionist that I am being told I can't have an eraser. I freaked out like I bawled. I cried. That would be my son. And then I stopped drawing. That would be my son. And my brother went on to draw. And he's this, you know, it's nurture. Like you can have talent. But the years of practice, I would worry, like with your son watching him go through that, does he quit things when he because of the perfectionist a lot. Temporary moments of temporary quickness, quickness of making up words. But he'll quit for a while and then get back to it maybe a day later or something like that. Or you just go to something that he can accomplish. Oh, and then he'll come back maybe at another time. And I tell him, like, I make mistakes all the time. The other day I had to show my first cut right to the cups that I'm making now. And I told him, I said, If you made the cup that I made when I was 32 years old, if you made it, I would tell you that that cup wasn't good enough, because I know you can make a better cup than my first cup. And like he saw the growth in me, so he said, Oh, I guess I can make mistakes. So just those lessons. Yeah, that's yeah. When my mentor, I apprenticed with a jeweler, I remember there was a day I was really, really down on myself in the studio and she brought out her work from undergrad and I needed to see it. Have you ever done that with your students? All the time. It's so important. Like, I feel like any time you teach a workshop or whatever, just start the first day with showing him your ugliest work. My first cup was hideous and I don't even know why they let me keep it really that bad. Do you have any pictures of your first job? I'm going to be like, Can I get that for the podcast? Oh, I can send it to you. Yeah, I could definitely. Oh, I would love that. I'll do it like a museum photo of it. Right. Ingredient paper. Oh, yeah. And people are probably like, oh, that's nice. Right? So if you do that, it tip over. The handle was off when I was like, why did they let me keep it? You know, put this towards your fans. Yeah. So I don't know. Yeah. I don't do a ton of research on my guess because I like my natural curiosity to ask the questions. Right. But I did peek a little. And it's your bio. You started throwing clay at age 32? Yes. How old are you right now? 48. Okay. Okay. And I think in our society this way, that we're taught to like go directly from a high school to undergrad to whatever and like know what you want to do. I always find it really refreshing when somebody is like, Yeah, I started in my thirties. Yeah, I'm trying to go to grad school again. That is right now. Yeah, yeah. But how complicated is that when you have a family to uproot them to do something like that? Like, would they come with you? Well, they won't, because my father in law is getting older. So my wife just wants to stay close to her father. And I get that. Yeah, I think we're moving in with my father in law in. In May. Oh, so important. Yeah. We'll be around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So going back to grad school, why at this point have you decided you want to go back for me? I want to learn. I want to dove deep into it. I don't need it right now. I want it. Yeah. I want to be around like minded people in my field because I'm not right now. So I want to get it for myself and I also want to get it to show my son that how important school is. Yeah, because he didn't witness me going to school, but I witnessed my parents going to school because we came from Jamaica and their degrees when they came here, they had to go back to school. MM So everybody in my house has like multiple master's degrees and stuff like that. So growing up I always just watched education and. They were doing it for different reasons than what I'm doing it for. Mm hmm. I think they were doing it to get a job, and I'm just doing it for knowledge. Yeah, I like that. Were you born in Jamaica? Uh huh. Okay. And what? When did you move? When I was three. Oh. So there's no work, no accent whatsoever. But you have a lot of family there, so. Yeah. My mother goes, my mother has a house there, so she's there now. So she comes back and forth from Jamaica to Florida. Okay. Yeah. We should probably fully introduce you to our listeners because I was doing a sound check, but it sounded great and we just, like, went right into it. Can you give your full name, describe the work you do and where you're currently based? Well, my full name is Richard Andre, Don Llewellyn Brown. Okay. Yeah. That's a lot different than Rich Brown. That's a Jamaican thing. So. Think when I'm 50, I'm going to turn my neck, change my name, but I'm going to keep. I don't know if it's going to be rich brown or it's going to be like Don Llewellyn or Llewellyn Brown. I don't know. I'm going to change it. So you said it was a Jamaican thing, is it? To multiple names. Yeah, because Richard is my great grandfather. Andre is my only given name. Okay, Don is my grandfather on my mother's side. Llewellyn is my father's middle name. So my mother just picked everybody's name and just put them on. But I like Llewellyn. Llewellyn is really nice. Classy. It is classy. When I'm 50, I might be Llewellyn and Rich is not short for Richard. It's just race. No, it's Richard. It is Richard is Richard. Yeah. I like the fact that you go to Llewellyn. You know, I. There's a lot of Sarah Browns in the world. We have the same last name. Yes, it's pretty common. Yes, very common. So I went to high school three Sarah Brown's alone when I was at Penlan the first time I started using my middle name. And it's I'll answer to it. And a lot of people do call me Rachel and I'm like, Okay, I don't know if I'd ever be a Rachel, though. Yeah, I think I want to switch it up just to be a little spicy, know Llewellyn, because I don't know. And I don't walk up to a Llewellyn, right? I walk up to Richard's and Rich but a Llewellyn yeah. Stands up maybe in grad school you get this alter ego through Llewellyn. Well, like make a hole in a word yes. You come out of there glass blowing. Like, who was that? Llewellyn, did you see Wellings? Where is Llewellyn? A glassblower. Is he an architect? What is he? So, yeah, I'm Rich Brown, but you ask for the full name. So I gave you the form. I love that. Thank you. You're welcome. So, Rich Brown. I currently reside in Georgia, a small town called Hogan's Ville, about 50 miles away from 50 miles south of the Atlanta airport Okay. And originally from New York and went to school in well, originally from Jamaica, New York, Jersey City, because that's where I attended school, St Peter's University. And I've been in Georgia for 18 years and I'm itching to leave. Yeah, to go where? I don't know. But that's the longest I've been in one spot 18 years a minute, the longest I've been in. I think that's why I'm itching to leave. But yeah, they had the father in law kind of. Yes. And he's not really holding us there. Right. So when I find out what I want to do, he'll he'll go wherever we go. Oh, that's good. Yes. Is your wife from Georgia? No, from New Jersey. Oh, okay. Okay. So she moved to Georgia when she was maybe elementary, late elementary, early junior high school, and then she moved back to New Jersey. Is she a creative? Not at all. What was your life before? Pottery. Because at age 32, you'd had a whole other education. Oh. So I always knew I wanted to be in education. I come from a family of educators as well. I was going to say they all had those m those master's degrees. Yes. So my mother's a guidance counselor. My sister is currently a guidance counselor, and she's pursuing her Ph.D. in education, in guidance counseling. Okay. So she has her MBA and then she had she went back for. Her Master's in psychology, and now she's doing her Ph.D. in psychology. So I'm trying to catch her. Right? I don't want her to beat me. Dang, that is a family of educators. And then my grandfather was on my paternal grandfather was a superintendent of schools in Jamaica and principal. So we just come from a line of educators. What did you go into teaching? What did you eat? Oh, things that I hate. Math, science, language. Arts. Okay. I love reading. Right. Right. Language arts. I despise language arts. And my college professors always told me to teach, which you have difficulty teaching because you're always. I had great professors when it came to education and they said, Always teach the hardest thing for you because you'll always be preparing yourself and you'll never get content. So that's good advice. I did Language Arts and then my principal saw that I was falling into art and I would mess with a lot of crafty things. Yeah. And he said, you? The art teacher at my school was always disappearing because of the kids. It's a rough subject to teach, and my principal said, Brown, why don't you think about taking the test? Because in Georgia all you have to do is pass the examination and you can teach whatever subject you want. Oh. So I studied for about a year and then I passed the art case and I was able to teach fine arts in the grade. Middle school. Oh, middle school. Yes. Middle school is rough. Yeah, but artless. That's what they say. But that's all I know. Yeah, I taught preschool when I jumped out of college, and I've only been in middle school, so I don't know anything else and I don't know if it's difficult in it. Okay. So just a sidetrack. But you're a tall man. Yes. And I just had this vision of you in a preschool room with these tiny and it was straight out of college and I played college basketball. So you went straight from college basketball to teaching? Yeah. Three and four year olds singing. Yeah. I'm not going to pretend to know anything about basketball, but I do know it is highly competitive. So if you played for college. Yeah. Yeah. Did you get. I was heavily recruited as a Division one athlete. I coached at the school St Peter's University. Okay. And I was just tired at the end because I could have I could have went overseas to play, but. Right. I was just done. You're just done? Yeah. Did you get a full ride? Oh, right, yes. So my master's was paid for as well. Wow. So I never paid for school, and I'm not going to do it now. That was. Yeah. Next question I was going to ask. I always start with, do you have student loan debt? Because I think your socioeconomic background like dictates so much of your opportunities moving forward. Yeah, my father told us, he said told my sisters and I, he said, I'm not paying for school and your mother's not paying for school. So do something to go to school for free. Yeah. And we did. We all did. So we all had free rides. How many siblings are there? Two. Okay, well, one passed away last year of ovarian cancer. My oldest sister. So. Uh huh. So it's just my. I have two older sisters. I'm the baby. So she's still here. Mhm. So you start teaching middle school art. And did you. Is that what prompted you to take the class to inform your no. You to YouTube video. It's crazy just scrolling on YouTube and I was corny, but you're old enough YouTube. This man was making mugs for a coffee shop and I saw it and I was just like, oh, shit. Oh, sorry. Can I. Yeah. You're on the podcast. Yes. Okay. I said, oh, shit. And it was like mud to magic. Yeah. He showed the process and he put the stamp of the mug on the cup, and I was just amazed. So I went online to find a local studio. I found one and I was passing it a lot and didn't even realize what it was and it was much higher. Studio in Gallery in Decatur, Georgia. Okay. And I stopped in one day. I took a tour and paid for one month membership and came back and just got hooked. Yeah. And the one of the owners, Eric, said to me, he was like, Rich, this is just like basketball, because I was coaching middle school basketball at the time. And he said, it's just like basketball, the muscle memory aspect of it. And it was so true. Right, right, right. So you have been doing pottery for 45, 48, 48. Oh, so you've been doing it ten years? No. 15, 16, 16. Wow. Oh, God. Doing math on a microphone. Why did I even try? It was all right. So to just ask the question, I only knew because I am in it and I think about it. When did you realize that this was something that was you wanted to pursue full time? Full time? Well, year three, I just started to sell my work because I would give my work away and I went to a friend's house. And so a bowl that I made and I was admiring the bowl and there was a bowl that I hated because of the color. Right. But when I went to their house for I don't know, was some party or some get together, I picked up the bowl, was like, man, this box next to you didn't remember, you remember? And they were like, Rich, that's a bowl you gave me. So they thought I was joking. I was like, Okay, I'm pretty good at this. Yeah. I started to sell at the local farmers market. And I was getting good feedback. And when I look back, a lot of stuff was bad, but I was getting good feedback. And what made me realize that what made me do it full time was a country singer by the name of Zac Brown. Oh, I know that process. Okay. He would come to the farmer's market. We have mutual friends, and in my neighborhood, I'm everywhere. Like a little social butterfly, so. Right. I guess my name kept coming up, you know, tall black guy, one of the few in the area. And I'm everywhere and I'm doing pottery, so that throws people off. Yeah, he saw me one day and he said, Have you ever thought about doing this full time? And I was like, you know, I have, but I can't because of insurance. Health insurance, right? I have a family, so I'm like, I can't do it. Yeah. So he invited me over to his house and he was like, Let's make it happen. And he said, What do you need to make it happen? And I told him and he took care of me for two years. Okay. Did not expect this to go this way. What? Yes. I was doing pottery in Zac Brown's back yard. For two years. My studio was in his backyard. He was your patron of the arts? Yes. He was white. Much respect. And I am not a country fan. I was in his house listening to hip hop and it was. It was amazing. Yeah. For two years. For two years. Because I mean, yeah, that was a that was going to be my ankles. Like how do you transition from a full time job when you have a family interest? So for Zac, believing in me is what got me into believing in myself in terms of being able to go out there and do it. And it's funny thing is, it's I didn't gain any any kind of national attention or anything under Zac. Right. And I didn't I didn't make really any connections under Zac. Yeah. It was after Zac and I was on my own and I had to really fight. Right. Right. And then when I was really fighting, that's how I rose, I guess, in the ceramic world, kind of. Prominence. And I'm still trying to, you know, keep doing what I have to do. Yeah. Did your wife I mean, how did she feel about you transitioning full time to pottery? Like in terms that she all about it? Or was she? Oh, yes. You trust me? She just. Yeah, I always just like I mean, when you have a partnership, it's always interesting because these kind of decisions will impact them greatly. And I like that. Yeah. She she trusts me, and I'm paying the bills, so she trusts me. Like, I think if it was a situation where, you know, we had nothing. Right. That's a whole different story. Right. But, yeah. Zac Brown and your career. I can pay bills. Yeah. And after Zach, I made more money just doing it on my own because I had to, but we didn't have insurance. So when that situation ended, my wife and I, we were out of insurance for two years. Yeah, but we had insurance through peach care for the kids, so it was a lot of knocking on wood to say, well, but then I said, you know, if we get hurt, the emergency room is going to take us, right? We'll figure it out. Yeah, they won't. Yeah. Not take you. So that's what pottery has done for me. It's made me like, really sit back and think about life and the things that we're scared about and the things that we're programed, that really our fears that we shouldn't have. I think about that a lot as a maker and as a creative about the shoulds where you should stay in your job. I remember the first time I got my full real time job right. I leave the interview, I Google PTO, didn't know what it meant, and I was like, Okay, you did it, Sarah. Like, you've been working towards this all this time to get this job with benefits and whatever. And it just I couldn't hold on for it. Like, I walked away from it. And I went about a year without health insurance until I was able to, like, start paying for it for myself. And I, you know, there is that you're like you rolling the dice. But I think it was really important. And a lot of people don't have health insurance. It's. It's important, but. Right. You have to live your life. You do have to. You can't wait. People were saying wait till you retire. I'm not I don't have I'm not that arrogant to think that I'll be here that long. Right. So you might not be here tomorrow. So I said I have to give it a go now because I can always fall back into education. I can always fall back into getting some kind of job, some 9 to 5. That's not a problem. Right. But I think this route really test is test your character and who you are. Yeah. And I love it. I think about how certain people your viewpoint of like, I might not be here tomorrow, I'm going to do it now. I'm very much so like that. I think I have gleaned it from losing my parents at an earlier age and just kind of seeing the fragility of life. Do you how do you feel that you kind of came to be that? Because I don't think it's a it's a it's an attribute that can be really hard to grasp. Just noticing. Like I grew up in a rough neighborhood in the Bronx. It was it was safe in the neighborhood. But when you stepped outside of your maybe five mile radius, it can get rough. I've lost friends. The first one I can remember losing was at 14. Yeah. I've lost so many friends that I've almost become numb to it. And as I get older now, I'm losing friends that are my age and younger that are just dying in their sleep. Mm hmm. This week. Is it this week? Starting Monday. So maybe. Maybe last Thursday, a friend of mine lost her son, who's 28, and he died in his sleep. Yeah. So you just don't. You just don't know. Yeah. My sister was a Hall of Fame athlete from Kansas University. Ran for Jamaica. Mm hmm. And she passed away at 61. So we're preparing for something that we don't know if it will be here. Right. So I'm not living in regrets, and I really, really think about it every day. Yeah. To. To to be present and be in the moment, which is extremely hard to do. Yeah. And. And not fear because things will work. It's so far, I'm really big in manifestation. I've been trying to be more. I really have been. Um, I have a hard time stomaching some people that are like manifestation influencers that you follow. But I do like this idea. 2024 is the year I'm trying to get into meditation. So you said you messed up already. What you're going to get into meditation? You said year. You're going to try to write. Yes, I'm going to get. I am meditate. You have to believe it and leave it alone. And I mean, it really work. It's I get whatever I ask for when I forget about it and when I really, truly. Example here. Yes. Yes. I applied for a residency or a fellowship at Harvard. Okay. But the way I'm looking at the residency, I don't see a way that it really it fits into my educational goals of creating a school one day, but it didn't fit into maybe the clay world. And I'm online looking at their art lab and I'm saying they have a ceramics studio. I need to know more about the ceramics studio. And when I come up here, I'm sitting next to Kathy King. Kathy, where do you work? Oh, I'm the director for Harvard Ceramic. So it was just a question that I put out there that I want to know more about it. And then my neighbor at PENLAND is the director of the program that I want to know more about. Yeah. And that's a manifestation, but. I think when we manifest, a lot of times we manifest with things that we think are really outside of our grasp. So if I say I want to manifest for $2 million, I might have in the back of my mind what I can never attain. I don't have that thought process. I have the thought process that I'll attain it, right? But when I just say I want to find out about Harvard, it's not a big thing. Yeah, because it's like it's just information. And then it presented itself because it was just like information. But imagine if we put that to anything, it will present itself. Right. And I believe that's why. The big people make it because they just believe in themselves. Never know what I am doing. I mean, I in December 2025, my leases up in Philly and I'm I just made my decision this past year I was like, I'm going to travel the world for a year. And that plays on to all those things that you're talking about. It's I can't wait until I retire to travel the world. I also don't want to do that when I'm 60. I want to do that when I'm 40, when I can hike that mountain and I know the amount of money I think I should have saved or whatever. And I am being very zen about it and kind of manifesting. But I'm just like, Yeah, it's going to happen. Yeah. I mean, you have to and everything will happen. Fall into place. It'll fall in place. I'm not signing that lease. I'm going to be taking off. Yeah, totally agree. And it's amazing because anywhere that I wanted to live, yeah, I lived and I never wanted to live in anything extravagant because and this might've only happened to me in the past three years. So if you're listening and you're younger, you know, even if you're older, it just takes one. I don't know, maybe one interaction that can change everything. So any place that I saw, I would say I wanted to live in that house. I lived in the house and I never set myself. Like if I'm look, when I came in this space that we are now, I'm like, man, I can live in this house and then I'll live in a house like this, right? So so we start setting your goals higher because people have it. Why can't you? Why can't we? Yeah, I feel that way. This kind of does lead into something with. So we're at Penn on winter residency. We have two weeks here and something that I am hyper aware of when I'm at Penn is making the time walking away from my work to make sure I make the connections with people here. Now, did you taught at Penlan last summer? Yes. And so you understand when this campus is full and buzzing and there is just so many distractions and a lot of people are like, no, I came here to work. I paid so much money to be here. I just want to zero in on this. But I think you miss out on one of the most valuable aspects. Aspects is you never know who you're sitting next at lunch. No. Yeah. Like I wasn't even hungry for lunch today, but I went because I want to sit by people and have a chance to meet somebody who, you know, don't know how they will impact your life years down the road. That's. Yeah, well, that's how I am about life in general. It's more about people than anything else, right? So I always say, like, if, if we leave this discussion or any discussion I have and I always preface any discussion I'm having, if you leave here and you say, Oh, he's a good partner, then I didn't do my If you leave if I leave here and I say you're a good potter, I didn't do my job because you're so much more than that. Yeah. I don't want to be. I don't want to be known as a potter. I want to be known as a good person. I say pottery is just something I do, and it's a conduit for me to have this discussion with you. Because if I wasn't doing pottery, I wouldn't be sitting here. This pottery brought me here. Right. But I don't want to be here to talk about Clay, because now life is bigger than clay, and it's bigger than all the things that we do. It's more. It's people. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of the heart of what I do is like, yes, I'm a craft person, but perceived value is about who the people are. If someone comes on here and they start talking about their techniques, I'm like, We have to cut it. Yet I cannot talk about that. And that's what paddling is when you think about it. We're all good at what we do. Yeah, we're here in this community, and it's about the people that make penlan what penlan is. I mean, if anybody is listening and applying for residencies and whatever, yeah, I got that Pendleton Fellowship, I got the Arrow Mount residency. The core theme in both applications was seeking community and being with people like minded individuals. So it's uplifting. Yeah, it it's really uplifting. And you learn so much when I go back, my studio is going to be crazy because I'm going to take a little bit of everything that I've seen people do. Yeah, because I've been. How do you do that? How do you do that? How do you. Yeah. So it's going to be a hodgepodge of work. My next creation. So Pamela Winter residency, this is a very special time to be here because everybody applies, they're kind of vetted and it's not necessarily about who's the best at what they do, but it's more about who has a clear vision of what they want for this time and who would value it, etc. So you do have a difference of skill sets and whatnot, but I'm still feel like the campus is just filled with rock stars like I was. Yeah, I know. I'm having a hard time limiting how many interviews I'm doing. I know I can only get like two or three in a day before I'm toast, but I could easily do five or six a day. Like, I guess an upper clay, like Beatrice in the corner, like anybody you see, you look into the work and it's like, Well, when you thought about coming here, what was your intention with your time to be here doing something that I can't do at home? So it's just soda firing. I don't have access to a soda kiln or wood kiln, so. And no wood would be too much, right, right in front of it all day. But I like the esthetics of soda, so I applied to do soda fire. Okay. Is there any other things that you're working on besides here? I mean, I know you're thinking about grad schools or any kind of well, in terms of the just clay in general, like professional development where you're. Well, while I'm here. No, I'm see, it's kind of tough for me because everywhere I go, I'm working out of survival. Right. I'm not. I'm not sponsored by an institution. Mm hmm. This is my life. Yeah. So when I come to places, I have to stay super focused to make sure I can create a body of work that it's. It pays the bills. Yeah. So I don't really get to take breaks in terms of, you know, people could be relax cause they don't really need. Right. What they do sometimes to to live. Mm hmm. I need what I do here to survive. And I love talking about that because it is a theme on this podcast where part of the reason why I called it perceived value, because I kept making meetings, so many makers that I thought lived off of the objects that they made, but they had an academic job or they have other circumstances that they didn't have to rely on it. And I think when you do, it really changes the way you make. It's a whole different ballgame. It really I just did a residency at Hamburg and. Oh, where's that? It's in Rayburn County, Georgia. North Georgia. It's about 2 hours from here. And they I was there in my cohort. I think most of them were like college professors. Mm hmm. And they would hang out afterwards, but I couldn't because I'm doing class, so I have to get it done. I have to get it in the kiln in two weeks, and then I have to fire it twice and get it out. So they I always ask the question when I'm around people at the end, what do you think of me? What's your impression of me? Mm hmm. And I said that to them, and they said, We just thought you were very focused. And they said that we just didn't think that you had time to hang out with us, and. And I did want to hang out. It's just. I can't. Yeah, because this is my life. And like you said, there's so many people who are not full time artists, but you would perceive that they were full time artists. Right. And it's a hard life being a full time artist. It's not what people think it is. It is a it's one of the hardest careers ever. Yes. I mean, even podcasting, I think for years, people perceived me to be a full time podcaster. And I was like, no, I do this on my nights and weekends. Mm hmm. I wake up at 5 a.m., and then I go to my full time day job. It's rough. Yeah, it's different. Can you remind me the name? Because you don't go under. Rich Brown There's a different name for your pottery. Pottery 32. I started when I was 32 years old. So 32? Yeah. I guess it's just easy. It used to be 32 pots, but if you type in pottery, you're not going to see 32 pot. So I just changed it maybe about seven years ago to pottery 32. MM Did you write a business plan when you went into this? Like did you have a had one? You did. I did, yeah. I mean, because that's how I really got into with Zack. Right? I had. Oh did he ask for like a and ask. I sent it to him. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And it was a vision board as well in all the things and he was like, shit, you dream big. And I think that kind of excited him as well to see how big I dream. So I dream really big. Okay, so let's talk about some dreams. So where so what is the structure of your business right now? Do you sell in person? Mostly online. Mostly online. And I did that knowing that I wouldn't stay in Georgia right now, knowing that I want to leave. So I didn't want to have a business structure just on location. Yeah. My next move I, I more than likely will. Mm. But now it's online wholesales. Right. Accounts. And do you do the trade show circuit or anything like that. No, but I'm thinking that I might because business was slower this year online. I mean, a lot of people took a hit. E-commerce, I'm in marketing. And so that's not been a fun thing to think about in all aspects. A friend who's a tattoo artist, even, they're taking hits as well. Well, that's nice to know that. Not just that. No, no, no, no, no. And when I saw that, I was like, wow. Right. Yes. Tattoo has been booming for so long. Yeah. And I think it's just an influx of people getting into it because they saw it. And I don't think it's that people don't want and I think there's just so many people doing it. Like studios are booming now. Oh, you mean in terms of pottery? Yeah, well, this is pottery. Yeah. Yeah, because this shows Ink Master. So. So people are like market saturation people. Yeah, I've gotten into tattoos and I think that's just what it is. So you just have to figure out how you can navigate that and either create something new in the same feel or stand out in that feel and be the the person of credibility. Mm. Instead, feel a in business talk that's unique selling point. I figured that out once. When I teach a business class, they're like, Can you lecture on unique selling points? And I was like, sure. And goes and teaches myself the day before what that means. Because I think this is kind of interesting. I mean, you have an academic background, I'm a non academic, but what I find is that half the battle is just knowing terminology. Yes, because real life is going to teach you so many things. And then in business school, they're going to teach you the way that everybody talks about it. Yes. And a lot of ways. So then for your business model, tell me where you're at in terms of your like getting to your ultimate dream. Like where we at in the realm? Where am I? And I don't know. It could be here tomorrow. I really don't know. I mean, you're fully supporting yourself. I'm fully supporting myself, which is true. But the business that I want to do, like I want to have I want to have a pen. Oh, you want to start craft school pretty much. Or a fine art school. But I want to have it. Where? It's it's more student based. For younger students like six through 12, I want to be able to provide residencies for students where I went to high school to come in the summertime and get the full access of it. And then that would morph into something where they'd be a K through 12 or a K through 14 where kids can leave and learn trades and crafts. So their last two years would be almost an associate's degree and really revamp education. Because when I was in school, New York City, my generation, they took out trades in New York. And when I was growing up, I remember every kid in the neighborhood was able to fix his own car at 16. And my generation, we couldn't do that right because it was gone. And every kid at 16, all of those guys who were older than I am. Yeah, they can fix their house. Mm hmm. We can't. Yeah, and that's lost. So I would like to have a program where its art is integrated into something where trade is integrated. When they leave, they'll be excellent crafts people by the time they leave. What I would what I would begin. And it doesn't necessarily mean that they have to then go on to get an art degree. No, no, not at all. No, not at all. I think that is so brilliant. Yeah. When you leave my institution in high school, you already have a BFA in terms of knowledge. Because I sometimes wonder, because I do think there is an issue in higher education right now where so many people are going into art degrees, but there's not pathways for viable, sustainable careers outside of academia. But you can only have so many teachers. Mm hmm. And I sometimes question whether it's because so many people go into it because, yes, art is an amazing thing, and I would want to pursue that. But also, we don't really get it in until like our K through five education anymore. That's the first thing that's cut. And so if you instill that and you give them that experience, then it's not something that they're necessarily craving so badly. Maybe they can make some more informed choices about what they really want to go into. And I would teach my students when I was teaching art because I had looping kids. So with me sixth, seventh and eighth grade, I said, we are using art not to put stuff on the wall, but using art to be creative. And it's funny because I had just recently asked a professor the same question and he said, That's what he's doing with his students. Yeah, but that's what I was doing with my students in middle school. I said, Just being observant is going to help you with anything. I can fix a lot of things because of art. Yeah, I can look at something and say, Well, that's out of place. Yeah. And I can come up with a creative solution because of art. So I was teaching my kids how to apply art to real life situations. Yeah. And I think that should also be spoke of. Well, I don't know. College is a weird thing, because on the university level, there's one aspect where you're going to learn traditional or you're going to learn and master that one skill set so you're not being taught anything else. Yeah, but now we're living in a society where we need we need to do something when we leave. Right. And we should do what we went to school for. Yeah. So I think that's just the missing thing for me. I want to go to school and just learn that specific skill set, but for a younger person, they need to go and learn that specific skill set and life. Yeah. Okay. So at your craft school, by the way, my dream job, which has changed, but my dream job five years ago was to be the director of a craft school. I don't wanna be director anymore because I like facilitating and I like helping create experiences for other people. I feel like Director has to think about bigger, farther reaching things, so and more so. I want to be like a Lesley Noel now, like creative director, making things like Pentland Winter Residency happen, etc.. But so in your vision, how do you. Mary, the trade school, the art with professional development. Like in your school, are you teaching them about taxes? You teach. You have to. But they don't teach. No, you got to teach them everything. You got to teach in a business model. Taxes, social media, photography. I mean, yeah, you have to run the gamut of what someone is going to need in order to be successful. I find it insane that I go because of this podcast. I have like gotten the opportunity to lecture and teach at universities, and it's always in the realm of professional practices. And I always ask, I'm like, Well, how much of this do you get? And they're like, Well, it's usually like one semester your senior year before you graduate. Like, that's supposed to be it to prepare you for real life. Now, that's while. So. So it would play a much bigger role in your school. Like. And that's what I said. When you leave my school as a 12th grader, you, you, you would be equivalent to having a bachelor's in terms of the knowledge that you would receive. Right. Because that would get the people who are in the fields to come in and do the demonstrations. I would get the professors because when I was teaching, I would have the local professor from Clayton State, the head of the art department. He would come in and and show my kids how to do things that I couldn't do. So I used those resources, those local resources, and with all the relationships that I've created throughout the years. Yeah, those would be the instructors that I would have at my school. Those who are actually doing it in the real world. Yeah. And I just have to have a big budget because I need to pay them to leave their situation to come and to do it. Yeah. Yeah. The only time I've gotten a spicy piece of mail or feedback on the podcast was when and this person and I talked about it at a later date and came to a resolution. But I do not agree with somebody who goes directly from high school to undergrad to grad school and then teaches a class that's like professional studio practices or something like that. And that happens so much in academia and and yeah, you can have all these years of education or whatever, but I still do not agree with you teaching this like practical real world class without the actual because whenever I'm almost 50 and I'm just starting to see who I am. Right? 48. Like I'm just learning myself now. Yeah. So. And I think we all do. Yeah, I think we all do. And we all say, Man, I wish I knew this back then. So, yeah, I don't know. I thought I remember I got asked once where someone was like, Well, if you don't actively make jewelry anymore, can you call yourself a jeweler? And I was like, Yeah, always. And I and I remember in that same conversation saying, I hope I have five more careers before I'm done. Like bring keep bringing it on. Yes, transition's hard. Change is hard. But all of I can't even imagine just having this like one focus through my life. I think definitely that. Yeah. And those pivots, you can feel like you're taking a step back, especially if somebody, like, stays on the path and like gets really far in their field. It can be scary to say you're going to leave your teaching job and become a potter in your early thirties. But I think there's so much value in that an adventure, because I wanted to be a fashion designer before pottery. Okay, Rich, when I made the comment that someone commented on you being fashionable, you left. Yeah, because I'm not that anymore. I'm. That's what I'm. That's what I like. I wanted to be a fashion designer, but I'm not that at all. Really? Yeah. I took a class at 15 New York. Oh, like you went to. I collect sewing machines and multiple sewing machines, so a little bit. All the aprons I wear, I make. Oh, and when I came to Georgia at that time, YouTube wasn't a big thing in terms of the information, right? Like you couldn't find it the way you can find it now. Yeah, you can do anything on YouTube. If it was like that, I would probably not be here talking about pottery. You probably interview me about making clothes because I was going to make clothes for athletes because I had to get all my clothes made because I was wider and skinnier in my midsection. I had like a 26 inch waist right when I left college. So everything was tailor made and I wanted to get into that. And I had a lot of friends who were playing professional sports, so it was just an easy access to make clothes for them. It was just that, yeah, I was scared at that point because I could have just gone to fit right full time. But I said to myself, Well, I'm leaving here with the master's degree. I need to go teach. I had no bills, no responsibilities. That would have been the perfect time. And it was cheap to go to school because it was a city school, a state school that might have been like $4,000 a year to attend then. Yeah. And I could have just did the whole fashion thing. But you had that degree, so you should, you should go to, as I should should the man. And when I look back, I was like, I'm not sure it's not too late, because if I start at 50 by 60, I'm nice. Yeah, yeah, nice. I'll make your clothes. I think about like musicians like Karen Dalton, who became this fate, this famous folk artist who her recordings any get like found until she was super, super old it's never too late. Never too late. So when you think about grad school, where have there are there places you've been thinking about? Like, where are places you can envision yourself? Oh, are you somebody who doesn't like to say it a lot because you want to jinx it? I'm not going to jinx myself, but. Okay, okay, okay. There's a fine line between manifesting and jinx in inner cities. Okay. You want to go back to cities? More city? Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't. I don't know if I could do this, like, be out here in the wilderness. Oh, PENLAN, I, I struggled. Yeah, I moved here from Seattle, and I really struggled. I love Seattle. I love Seattle. I love the city. I love Tacoma. I'm a city girl. I love small cities, too. I don't want to be in and I don't want to go back to New York City. I've never even tried. I was too intimidated, but I really feel like I found a gem in Philly. Yeah, Philly's nice. I've been to Philly multiple times because if it's smaller actually than Seattle, but it has some somehow in its proximity to New York City, it just feels bigger. Oh, no, it's a thing. Philly's great. Yeah. Yeah, that was a part of my territory. When I was an admissions counselor, I used to go to Philly. Suburbs of Philly in Philly. Yeah, yeah. So I can see how, like, moving to the woods and then my wife can't do this at all. We have to have a balance. You could definitely do a small city, right? She can't do this. Yeah, I could probably. I could. I could do it, but she can't do it, so there has to be some kind of balance. Yeah. When I did it, I was like, I can do anything for two years. It's just two years. Yeah, I could definitely do something for two years. Yeah, yeah, that's easy. But I want to be comfortable as well, right? I just want to feel comfortable being a black man, you know? You always want to feel comfortable where you are, right? Rural North Carolina can be a little hard for that. And I don't know a lot with me. I don't know. I don't a lot of people think I'm law enforcement or former military. Hmm. And I don't know if sometimes if people are looking at me because of my color or my stature. Right. So I'm always confused because my undergrad was sociology. So I'm always studying people and I'm like, why are they looking at me? Is it because I'm six seven? Is it because I'm black? Or is it because I'm black and six, seven, right? Because people will stop me and say, well, you're a former athlete or something, so. Or I'll go to the register and they'll say, Military? Are you military? Yeah. So I don't know. Yeah, but it's just a it's an uncomfortable feeling to have that you're always questioning yourself. Mm hmm. All that. I am always aware that I'm black. Right. Always like I'm always aware. And that's. That's shitty that you have to be. You have to think outside of. Just being just being existing. I don't think I think about the fact. Yes, I mean, it's I do think about how a lot of our how I'm a woman every kind of the same thing like the minute I know I'm out and about and it's going to be dark before I can get home, it sets in. Yeah, anytime I get in a lift by myself, I am a woman. So yeah this is sad. This is a I should be laughing at this, but it's, I'm leaving a store. When I'm walking through the thing to leave, I'm like, please don't beep. Oh yeah, I'm not this sad. To me that is has to be laughable because it's like, damn I, I went to Asheville and I had some something in my pocket, like a lotion. I was like, You know what? Let me leave this in the car, like, because I don't want them to think I don't like I have these thoughts. Yeah, and it's awful, but these are just real thoughts I have. And I don't know if I'm supposed to have them and but I have them, right? So and that's how I'm living my life, which is crazy because you always. Yeah. And I don't know, maybe that's just a street smart thing and just inner city heightened awareness thing. Well, I also think it's just being aware of racism. Yeah, and I'm definitely aware of that. Yeah. So, yeah, like that all just sounds like a byproduct of growing up in a very racist society. Definitely. Yeah, yeah. That's just my take on it. But that sucks. That sucks. And I have to laugh about it because that's all you could do. Either you laugh or you cry about it, right? It's like when all my friends are like, text me when you get home and like, Oh, I'm so bad at it and we'll make jokes. But it's like, No, no, we just want to make sure you didn't, like, get murdered. And that's funny you laughing because either laugh or say, Yeah, yeah, exactly. You have to make a joke about it either way. But the reason that exists is because of that. So yeah, I like this dream. A lot of your craft school that's going to be big. Like, if I could redo it, I would like to go to something like that. You mean you can come? You could teach? I would, yeah. And when you come said when you come back from your tour. Yeah. You could teach students how to do the podcasting. Right, right, right. You could teach students about voice and diction and business and marketing. Yeah, well, that's kind of everything that you do. You can teach it to school. Creative Director, if that's you want Leslie's position. Yeah, we got it open. Leslie's listening. She's like, Oh, I see you, Sarah. I'll come. I'll pay you well, too. Okay. Well, you know, I do. I negotiate very well. Don't worry about it. Yeah, yeah. I'll pay you what you're worth. Thank you. I love that. So what next do I want to ask you about? There's so many good things with you. We wanna talk about basketball. Yeah. And the only reason why I want to talk about basketball is because, once again, it's not about basketball. It's about people. I do want to talk about this. One of my best friends, my friend Georgina, is obsessed with basketball and gets to, like, make things for basketball players and whatever. And I'm always like, Yeah, that's great. I don't really I don't really have much to do with basketball. Tell me about what it's like being a college athlete. All right. Yes, I'm here for. Basketball for me was growing up in the Bronx. We thought to get to college you get it through sports that my neighborhood and I think a lot of kids in the inner city still think that same thing. And I remember I started playing I started playing late. I started playing in high school. And I remember going to our junior high school, which went up to the ninth grade and I'm 14, 15 and trying out for the team. And they were laughing at me because I wasn't a basketball player. When I was younger, I ran track because my sister was my coach and I was really good in track. So I was always an athlete. Long legs, always an athlete. Yeah. And when I played basketball, there was a group in my area called Big Time and they were coached by a little lady named Evette Washington. Okay. And she passed away and she passed away about maybe eight years ago. Okay. And this group, they won every basketball tournament in New York City. Uh, the guys went on to college. Eric Mobley played in the NBA. He was one of the players. They were all if you wanted to play in our area, big time basketball is where you wanted to play. Yeah. So we're playing in a summer tournament. I'm on another team and I'm playing and I'm busting my ass. I'm busting my ass. They beat us by like 30. Okay. After the game, she looks at me is a little lady. Yeah. And was like, who the fuck are you? And then my friend was like, Oh, that's rich. She was like. You playing with me next year. And she came and she grabbed me, and she. She brought me into her world. And she took care of me. The guys. They were all older than me. I was the youngest in that group. Yeah. She took care of me if I needed something. Like in terms of money, clothing. She did it, and she had my back and in my ear. We never thought about going to the NBA. We just wanted Division one scholarships. Right. And if it wasn't for that lady, I wouldn't have I wouldn't have excelled. And she was the best teacher ever because she would yell at us, but she would yell at us because she knew there was more that we can do. And I took that into my teaching practice. Right. So in a game situation, there was one situation I'm playing against the best player in the country at the time, Philippe Lopez. He was on the cover of Sports Illustrated. Okay. And she grabbed me by my collar and saying, you're not he's not better than you. He was way better than that. But that day he wasn't that team wasn't that day because she believed in us so much. And then I take that and I pass that on to my kids, the kids at home and the kids that I teach. Like, there's so much potential that we all have inside of us. Yeah. And we can unleash it if we have those right people behind us as cheerleaders. The mentors of that Washington was my biggest cheerleaders and my friends. They would laugh all the time because they would joke. And we're adults like thirties, forties and they like a vet. Says she wants to have a team tomorrow. I don't play basketball. I don't watch basketball. But they know if a vet was living today and said, Rich, this summer, we're doing some kind of game for adults, yeah, I'm going to go get in shape and go play for that. Yeah, because that's how influential and powerful she was as a person and everybody in the neighborhood, like all the guys, we all had respect and we all loved her because of what she did for us. So how does she get into that role? What was her story? She was a basketball player growing up, right? Was she from the Bronx? She was from the Bronx, yeah. She was a she was a well known basketball player. Mm hmm. And then she just became a coach, and she was the only female coach. As I say, that seems to me to have a she was tough. Yeah. Curse like a sailor. She was rough, but, yeah, she. And she got all the best players in New York to play for her, too. So it was just an honor to play for her. And she's. She's like, my biggest basketball story. Yeah, because college just was. It was just college, you know? It was just for me, college was. It was just a free ride. Right. I never looked at it as something. I mean. You didn't you weren't you didn't have your eyes on the NBA. Yeah. And it wasn't basketball for me was I think once I made it to college, like I pretty much gave up in terms of I got my Division one scholarship and there was nothing else for me to achieve because I never had any other loftier goals to play after college. You weren't dreaming that big? No, no. And, you know. Yeah. And st basketball in New York was everything. So as long as we were good industry, that's all that mattered. College was just something a place to get that free education to be a teacher. So coming from. Event and having such a strong mentor in your life in pottery. I feel like with pottery especially, there is so many like apprenticeships and mentoring and etc.. Have you sort that out in your own career, like opportunities to really mentor people? Yeah, well, people come in, they ask me for help and our guide them any way I can, but I think, yeah, I haven't met that one person who really wants it because it looks glamorous. And you know, when you come in, I'm going to put you through the ringer. Like the way Evie would put me through the ringer. Yeah, and I don't think people are ready for that. It can be hard. Yeah, it's not glamorous. I guess I might make it look glamorous. I might make things look easy, right? Well, it is. Last night I was in the studio to 130, and I stopped because my. My shoulders were hurting. And that's when I know my stress is coming. My mother used to say it all the time like my shoulders hurt because she was stressed out and I was like, That's the dumbest that I've ever heard. Why is your shoulder hurt? Like, I'm thinking, you supposed to get a headache, right? Or something else. But I am the. Because now. Now you're the one with the sword shield. My shoulders will start to burn. And I just got over. Overwhelm last night of looking at the stack that I had to complete the time to get for your product, your firing. And the thing about it, it was like, I don't even know why I was stressing because I stay up that late. I just it was just too much at that time, right? It was just too much. I just didn't want to do it. I just didn't want to do it. I guess at that point, I'm I'm 100 plus in and I'm like, I just don't want to do anymore. Right. So my mind is starting to wander like I don't want to do it. And then I started to feel the stress. And then I just stopped and got back into this morning. Something I've been thinking a lot about during this residency was prioritizing rest. So I am notorious from coming to Pendleton or going to a craft school going so hard because I'm like, you only have two weeks and then going home and getting the flu or sick or just being a mess. How do you approach that in your studio practice? Because again, studio pottery. Yeah, it's real hard. It's a lot of work. I don't I don't hang out. Because I'm so focused. And it's not that I don't think I'm missing anything because I'm grew up in the Bronx. New York was the height of hip hop and we partied enough. So I have parties for two last five lifetimes. My friends were deejays and stuff. I grew up around rappers, right? So partying for me. Yeah, it's just it's just a lot of noise. So I just I'm just really focused on what I'm doing here. And I wanted to read more here, as I say. But do you prioritize, like actual beans, sleeping? How many hours and. Oh, sleep all right. Oh, yeah, I'm asleep. If you ask my wife, she's like, Oh, she hates me because she doesn't sleep like I sleep like I come home and crash and just and I'm going, Yeah, I'll get my eight. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to get my eight. I'm going to get my half yeah, yeah. And I'll take naps. I can sleep right. I can go to sleep right now. Right, right, right. No problem. So I do rest and if it's not, pottery is rest. And to me pottery is not really work because I love it. The only time it becomes work is like this situation now that I have to get the stuff in the kiln. But to me it's not work. If whenever I visit on vacation, I go for pottery. Yeah. Like, I mean, it is. And when I hear people saying, like, I don't go to the beach and just chill, like, that's not fun for me. Right. So we're going for my daughter's birthday. Not this weekend, but the following weekend to Panama City or something. I'm going to try to find a potter who's out there. Oh, Panama City Beach. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm going to find a local potter and go hang out with that potter and talk rare because that's what I am. That's what I do and it's that relationship thing. Mhm. So best for me is reading. Yeah. Sleeping which I do. I just want to read one. Right. I feel you on that. I, I spent a month in Thailand and I found that. Seeking out crafts persons or things like that grounded me. But it was still fun. So there was a day where I rented a scooter and went around this island that's known for partying and the beaches and clubs. And I just looked up pearl farms. And so it's still related to jewelry. Yeah, that would be me. I'm Lee. Yeah, I just. I'm just a potter right now. Or just an artist in general. Just any art. Any art form. I just want to see the person with their hands on it. So I'm often jealous of the pottery community because it's huge, like in Sitka. Have you gone to an antique shop? Yeah. I mean, thousands got in Seka this year. I really want to go. You should. It's enrichment. Yes, yes, I do know that. And I really want to go with the podcast and just kind of talk to a bunch of potters. Yes. What are ways that you cultivate your community because you did a night class. You work by yourself. But what are ways in which that you engage with your community? Because you strike me as somebody. I mean, yeah, you're a people person. You love community. I get that out of you. One conversation. Well, just being. Being present. I hate social media, but I'm on social media. Right, because. The. The portrayal of black men in society is one. Negative. So I take on the responsibility to be a role model. Yeah. And, and. And I put my head up. So on my social media, I'm always showing pottery. Yeah, I'm showing. I'm a black man doing pottery. And there are a lot of people who who look up to me. And I know because if I'm not getting a DM, I'm actually going out and meeting them. So I don't know if you're familiar with the tour that I took in April, so I took a tour across the United States and it was called Changing Lives Tour Through Clay. Okay, no, I'm not familiar though. I visited. We had 41 interviews and I had a videographer, so I had three friends with me, a photographer, my friend Angela Robinson, who was like my business manager and Sage and Barb from Puerto Rico. And Sage is like he travels the world doing documentaries. And he and his wife came with me and we did. We were out for 26 days. We did 25 cities in 26 days. Oh, my God. We visited schools. We visited institutions of clay. We visited a lot of potters. And we interview them. And we have it all compiled. And we're supposed to do the East Coast as well. Right? And then we're just going to eventually create a documentary. So if I attend grad school because I don't I say if and the only reason why I say if I manifest things I don't know if grad school was for me yet. Right. And I will see if I will see what the future holds. Yeah, because it could be for me and it might not be for me. Yeah. So that determination has presented itself yet. So Changing Lives through Clay tour was just a tour to show black. A black man in good light. Yeah. Me visiting these people in what I do and that is. Clay Yeah. And I had some powerful moments that changed my way of thinking about Clay and how I represent myself through clay. So, you know, there was a student that I met and after the after I met him, he asked the question. He said, I have one more thing to ask you because he follow me on social media. Yeah. And I was like, Yeah. So he said, Can I get a hug? Oh, it's a grown man, right? So I was like, Shit, okay. What I'm doing is working. And then I visited a school in Kenosha. Concern with a school shooting happened. Branford High School came into the classroom, and I sat next to a black male student who was at the parties. Relax, if I can join him, he said. Yes. I joined him. He leaned over and he said. He whispered to me. He said. I'm glad you're here. This is a high school senior. And I said, What do you mean by that? He said, I'm glad to see somebody who looks like me. Yeah. I said, Oh, wow. And then there was a student at the desk at his desk, and he had gloves on because he doesn't like the way Clay feels on his hand. And he was never on the way. He never stepped foot near a potters wheel. He would just watch his friend do it. Yeah. And then when he saw me sit down at the Potters Wheel, he said to his teacher, Can I go on the Potters wheel? So he came over and he said, Can I join? And I was like, No, I'm taking my hands off. I said, Let your boy teach you how to do it. And he sat next to his friend. They were doing pottery and they were arguing back and forth because he was like, How come you didn't tell me about this? He was like, I'm here all the time. I made it. So yeah, they were like, Oh, if he could do it. Yeah, I guess I can't. I can't. And then when they were changing because they actually are teachers, if they can stay because I was there and when they were changing classes, another black male student came and he laughed at them. He's like, I look at you two on a wheel, like doing that girl stuff or whatever he said to him. And then he pointed to me and he was like, He does pottery. And then when he saw me, he was like, Oh, he does pattern. And he sat at the table and he was just like total focus on them on the potters wheel and only to actually teach if anything ever happened about that. Yeah. How they doing? Yeah, I'm well. The one senior student, he reached out to me when he graduated and I'm not sure what he's doing now, but it it really is important to be representation. You have representation in anything? Yeah. And then we took a trip out to Pittsburgh and we visited standard clay. They're a big clay company. One of the biggest. Right. And Gram, the owner of Standard, was like, you have to meet Bill Strickland. And I didn't know Bill Strickland until I went to Pittsburgh. And Bill Strickland is 75 year old black man. He has the Manchester Guild School of Crafts. I want to is to Manchester Gilman. I don't know if I'm saying the end right. And he's from that area in Pittsburgh. And it's a there's a lot of poverty in that area. And he opened a school and in that school they have a chemistry lab where you can apply. And after one year residency and it's totally free one year residency, you can go work for Johnson and Johnson. There's a like $1,000,000 culinary kitchen there. Okay. And these they're they're eating what they create and they creating the puff pastries and all the the top restaurant stuff. And that's what they eat. Right. And then he has a jazz recording studio there and the best jazz musicians in the world perform there. Right. And they won five Grammys from live recordings right there in Pittsburgh. And they have an auditorium. It was Manchester Guild. Yes. And it all started with Clay. This man started his entire thing with Clay. There's a piece of Potter. He's a potter. And there's a picture of he's sitting down. Well, Mr. Rogers is sitting down at the potter's wheel and he's over. Mr. Rogers? What you? Yeah. Bill Strickland. And we sat and we spoke and down the block, he has an orchid facility. I don't know if it's 44,000 square feet. They have orchids and they bring those plants to his building. And he did a TED talk with Herbie Hancock behind him. And the TED Talk, I don't know, maybe 25 years. So it was a long time ago. I don't know. Ted talks were about that long. But yeah, he had a TED talk and he was saying Why? Do people from lower socio economic backgrounds? Why can't they have a water fountain? Says a water fountain in a school? Why can't they have fresh flowers every day? So this fresh fly was there every day. Why can't they get the same things as people who are wealthy? They deserve it just as much as they do. So he's teaching the people in the area so they can. Get the resources that they need. So when I saw his school and its school building, I was like, I need to create. I always had this very inspiration, but I was like, I didn't have the vision. Vision like that, right? Like, I didn't know it could be so. So big. It was huge. I mean, it's a school. School. It's not. I got to come check this out. And he has I think there's 11 of them like that across the United States. And he was like going to Ireland to talk about starting some kind of program with. I mean, he's amazing, right? Like, he's a Rhodes Scholar. I know. He has one of those kind of. Behind him. He was a former pilot. He is everything. And he just had a double lung transplant and a stroke and he was reteaching himself how to throw in the will at 75. And he gifted me a casserole dish that he he relearned how to do after his stroke. And that's the only piece of pottery that I have in a drawer under a cylinder, because over it that one's special. No one is touching that. I don't ever hold things like that. I don't hold value with personal objects. Yeah, but that. Right, that was it. That's incredible. Did you will there be more connection with that, the Manchester Guild in the future for you? Oh, I think I'll come back and teach you something. Well, the way set up, I don't it wouldn't be a place where I would teach, but it would be a place where I would learn from him because he's doing. Like seminars on how to open things like that. Oh, okay. So I would definitely take that class just to see what it is. Yeah. Give them the tools that they can move forward and do it more. Getting back to this. Like across the country. Documenting and etc.. What funded that? Did you write a grant for that? No, I didn't write a grant that was all through social media. So I reached out to people through social media, contact Coco, contacted companies and said, Would you pay for the hotel in the area? So some companies actually gave us small checks to make it happen. Different studios housed us when we got there, like when we went to Standard, we stayed in the owner's house because his father was away. So we took over his house and the pottery community's amazing pottery. So wherever we went, somebody was like, Oh, you can stay with us. Oh, you can stay here. Oh, you can say, we'll put you up in this hotel. So it was just, like straight grassroot. Mm hmm. You hit the floor running to make it and then going into a lot of debt. And I was going to say, is, like, everybody involved is pitching in their own time. Yeah. So for free. Yeah. So I was telling my friends about it. Sage and Barb who took the video. Yeah. And my friend Angelo, he was definitely going with me and we were just going to bring our cameras and duck. And it sage. Sage does this on a big level. Yeah. He professional. When I told him, he was like, I want to come. And I was like, I can't afford you. Right, right, right. I'll do it for free. He was like, because I'm he's working. But he was like, this would be a passion project for him. Right. So he came because when he was with us, he was supposed to be documenting, I think it was travel and tourism for Saudi Arabia. And he didn't do that to come with me. Wow. So I was like, Oh, thank you. So we have all that footage and we're going to continue and it'll probably be like a five year process before it's all said and done. Right. Well, let me know when you come to Philly. Oh, yeah. Two bedroom apartment. Oh, see? Yeah. So we're going to I don't know when we're going to hit the East Coast. It might be a year away from now because you just did the big first leg. That's a pretty incredible project. It was I'm I'm I would say I'm surprised that we got it done. But once I put my mind to it, we did it. Yeah. Okay. So talk to me about you do these Instagram lives. What's the name of it? Throwing shit. Throwing shit that started with Diane Adams from Sample House. She she when she started to do pottery, you know, we all had jobs. Yeah. And we're bored. So it was just a way to connect with people because you're in your studio by yourself, right? So what we do is we talk shit to each other and then we'll bring on different potters to show. Sometimes they show their process or they're sometimes they just come on and talk shit. Right. Really informal. Yeah, most of the time. But sometimes it's very formal and very informational as well. But it's just a way for the Black Potters to show like we're out here and we're doing is talk shit all black. No potters. Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, we have everybody. Yeah, everybody. I come into it. Okay. And then you're thinking about maybe turning role in that into a podcast? Yeah, I like talking. You have a good voice for podcasting, I think. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So keep me posted on that. And like I said, I'm always willing to give tips and my friend. And we would just we just want to look at art from the black male experience. Well, I think that's really important. So. So people can see it and hear it. Mm hmm. See the struggles, what we're going through. Because as soon as I got home, when I was in, I got back to the roost here. Home, I. Yeah, I did. I'm like, I'm home. Yeah. And I said to call my friends and I was like, you guys got to start applying to spaces like this, right? You're out there just to play. But, you know, I was talking to some friends and they just don't feel comfortable. This is this is not a place of comfort. Mm hmm. Because it's predominately white. Historically white. Yeah, and it still is. I mean, yeah, I'm one of the few because we don't apply to things like this because of feeling comfortable. Right. And I'm like, you know, we need to. Well, you're a distinguished fellow, right? Yes. And. Part of my work here was PENLAND asked me to do a series of interviews with distinguished fellows to give the perspective of a black potter at Penlan. And to give insight is like what your experience is here, because they do want to make this a space that is more inviting. And the Distinguished Fellows is an initiative where you're invited and you come free of charge or supported financially to have this experience. And I think it is an important initiative of one of many that they're doing. But I think it's also important, just to be honest about it, that, yeah, I would feel uncomfortable coming here if there wasn't anybody that looked like me or my race wasn't represented. I get it presented, I get it. And that's why I want to start a school. So my school is not that my school is going to be exclusive, right. But it's going to be like, well, Rich owns that school, right? So I'm comfortable going in. Exactly. Richard Art School. So we're good. Like, we know that there's going to be nothing. There's nothing behind closed doors that's going on that's in a detriment to us. Right. And that's why I really want to have a place. And I always say, like, my whole thing is setting the table. I want to set a table. Yeah. At my house because I'm always invited to someone's house. Right. And I'm just saying, setting the table in terms of the whole entire black community, you can feel comfortable coming to this table because I this is my table. I set it, and I invited you to my table. Mm hmm. So now when you come to my table, it's okay. But for them to come to Penlan, they're into a space that they're not familiar with sometimes and is just not comfortable with. And I totally get it. Yeah, I get it. And that's why I'm on social media a lot. And I'll see if I'm visiting somebody because I visit a lot of, you know, white potters. Yeah. I say I'm going to can I videotape me here? And I don't want to do that. Right. And they'll say, well, no, no, no. Like, I don't want to, you know. And I say, the reason why I'm doing that. And it was a situation when I was young. I said, imagine a black person going to the middle of nowhere in the mountains of North Carolina to a white guy with a long beard. That shouldn't happen. Right. But now if I document that it's okay and is safe and you are inviting. It changes the whole narrative. Right. And their head almost exploded like, oh, shit. I never thought of it like that. And I'm like, that's why I'm doing it. Because. I'm not really coachable. I only feel that's a lot of work on you too. Like, emotionally. I only feel comfortable appealing when I get to Penlan, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Driving up to Pendleton on my own. Please don't stop. Yeah, yeah. No, it's totally a thing. And, you know, once again, these are just the fears that I have and just thinking of what could happen because the true story in I'm not sure of the year what we want to see in 1990, around 98, my friends was shot on the New Jersey Turnpike, going to North Carolina and t to try out for a basketball team. So I went to junior college first and my friends were on the turnpike and they were shot by state troopers. And it was probably just like a random pull in over a random pull that that's where that that's where that like racial profiling came really from that incident. Right. Right. And and they were awarded money. But my friend woke up in the hospital. He didn't even know what happened. They survived. Yeah, they all survived, but. These are just thoughts that it's not thoughts to have in your head because it's just a made up thought. These are thoughts because it's reality. Yeah. And like it hit close to home. So I, you know, we're just always thinking of things like this. Right. Right. So to have a place, you know, coming opinion on of just I'm at Penn okay I'm good right. Well, I mean, that's I really value the fact that I'm really thankful that you took the time from your studio practice to come speak with me, because I did really want your perspective on the podcast and to talk about it and to talk about being at Penlan and what it's like to be a parent is great. I mean, I assume that in the catalog, even seeing a black man teaching a clay class here, what was did you find that there was more representation in your class? No, because that's interesting, because my friend Georgina taught and she's Mexican and I was her assistant. And I will say half the time in that class, everybody speak speaking Spanish like the amount of Mexican Latina students in that class, I was like, this is the most diverse class of ever been in here. No, no, no. It was it was. No. Yeah. We had one black student, but we had one black student had one black student. That was it. And she was working here. And a lot of times just lack of resources. Like, I couldn't, I mean, I couldn't take I couldn't pay for paneling to come here this time if I didn't get that fellowship right, because I have to survive and that money would be better suited to survival, right? Yeah. So. Just having the fellowship meant a lot so that I can be here. Right. Yeah, because the distinguished fellows are ones that they actively invite to come. And then there's fellowships also within the Penn, then winter residency that they are prioritizing bipoc and queer artists or individuals who've never been to Penlan to create that. I mean, I know change can't happen overnight and it has to come at a steady pace. And I feel that these are things that they're doing to that. Maybe in 15 or 20 years, the representation on this campus will be vastly different. I say Pendleton is doing an excellent job and. We can critique him, too. No, I. I'm transparent. I will say if I don't like something. Yeah, but they are. I get. I get vibes of energy. I'm really into energy. And there's no bad energy here. The first time I came in, the second time I came, that's I don't feel like I don't belong here. And I've been places that I feel like I don't belong. That's a really powerful thing. And I don't want to say that. I don't want to say where I've been. Yeah, but I've been places that. I don't want to. I don't want to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's a huge endorsement. Mm hmm. Okay. But I just can't say the place, but I'm just trying to tell you. You're saying I don't want to sit at everybody's take, and I don't want to sit at everybody's table. A table is an intimate setting. I don't want sit in everybody's table. Yeah. So and that's my whole thing about the food. That's why I make what I make because it's it's not expensive pottery. It's pottery that. Someone can afford its pottery that someone can use. And when I say someone, I'm thinking about because people always talk about your target audience like you can sell it for more. I don't want that audience to be my audience. I want the schoolteacher to be my audience. That's what I was. Yeah. Yeah. I just want the regular middle class person to be able to afford my product. That as craftspeople, we talk about that so much. And I and I hate that it is the thing that we say, well, I couldn't afford my own work and I want people in my class to be able to wear and afford my work. And the thing about it is, if the if and the thing if the market if people are buying your work and selling at a higher price, then you have to raise your prices. The market will dictate what you can sell it for. Yeah. And if. And if I get to that point and I'm saying if because I don't know if I want to get to that point. Yeah. So. And let me just say when I get to that point. Mm hmm. And my cup is $350. Yeah, I'm giving it back. That's the whole thing. I just the biggest accomplishment, accomplishment that I had this year was I had a toy drive for a neighborhood after school program that my son attends. So where I live, there's a lot of poverty or poverty there as well. So I made sure that every student. There were 75 students. I made sure that every student had a Christmas gift. So with my Christmas sale, I took that money. Mm hmm. And made sure I bought gifts for all of those students. And that messed up my life in terms of financially. Right. But. It just. I just felt good. Like it was a drug. Well, right. That's like a core value of your business. Like, it can't always be. The bottom line is your profit. Mm hmm. I get that. Yeah, that's how I am. So if it's not about giving back, then I'm not. I'm not living. That's how I. I do things. I like that. Uh, Rich, this is so good. Yeah, this is great. We could do this all day. I know you're easy to talk to. It's a yeah, I did have that, like, moment in the middle of our interview. I think it's also because I woke up early and ran today. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why I did that. I am just weathered the hills. I know, but it was a chance around with David Clemens. Who is somebody that. Yeah, he's never seen me as a runner. And you must be a runner because you're like 33 plus miles in the hills on a snowy day is not. Yeah, for the easy. And he was one of my first instructors at PENLAND. And so to be able to come back and be like, I'm a runner now, David and you know, he did it. He was still mentoring me out there. I fell behind everybody and I saw him stop and wait for me and then run slower with me. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming for having me. This was a pleasure. I'm excited. You know what? Our paths are going to cross again. I know. Yeah, because you're going to come to the school in some capacity or other after you finish your, uh, around the world trip. Yeah. And on your East Coast pottery tour. Oh, I got to stop in Philly. Yeah, I got. Yeah, definitely stop in Philly. Well, we'll roll out the carpet. Oh, I appreciate you. All right, everyone. Well, this has been another episode of Perceived Value, the podcast broaching the subject of value with artist creatives, potters until next time. Perceived Value is a podcast recorded and produced by me, Sarah Rachael Brown. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram as at perceived value streams directly from our website at Perceived Value Add podcast dot com or listen on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play. Just don't forget to rate and review us. Thanks for listening.