Unknown: Hi. My name is Sarah Rachael Brown. I'm a 30 something year old woman and I live in Philadelphia. I'm a contemporary jeweler and like many others, I am an artist trying to make a living. On this podcast, I'm going to broach the subject of value. I'll be talking to studio artists and performers, educators and administrators and anyone else attempting to combine their creative endeavors with how they get a paycheck. Hi and welcome to the 73rd episode of Perceived Value, also known as the first episode of Season seven. Now, for years, I just equated one year of the podcast to be a season. But back I kind of screwed up with the pandemic and I feel like it's just been season six forever. So this is the first episode of a special series for Penance School of Craft, and I thought, what better time than to declare a new season of the podcast? So it might be a little arbitrary, but whatever its season seven and that feels really good, this series that you're going to be hearing is four episodes featuring conversations with Penlan Winter Residency Distinguished Fellows. That takes a big breath of air to say, and if you have no idea what I'm talking about, that means somebody skipped listening to the trailer I released previously. So here's your chance. Go ahead, press pause. Go back, listen to the trailer. Listen to the 17 minutes that I painstakingly edited down from over 30 minutes of recording. A few special voices share all about what the Penlan Winter Residency is and what it means to be a distinguished fellow. And I share all about how this special series even came to be. So now is the time to stop and go and listen. This series was recorded during my Andrew Glasgow residency at Penlan School this past January. I owe a lot of gratitude to each distinguished fellow for not only participating in these conversations, but taking the time away from their precious studio time. I'm very protective over my studio time, so that meant a whole lot. I felt incredibly privileged for the opportunity to meet each of these artists and sit across from them and learn about their lives in and out of the studio. Distinguished only begins to describe each of these incredible individuals. So thank you to the fellows. Thank you to Penlan and the residency for the gift of time and financial support to make the series possible. And a huge thank you to the PENLAN staff. You are some very special people, specifically Claire, Robin, West, Leslie, Mia and Nadia. Whenever I had a need, you helped fulfill it. You were just all around. Amazing. So thank you. Today's guest is a visual artist and educator whose artistic practice interacts with sculptural processes that explore issues within the architectural condition, the meaning of home, the remains of built space, and the relationship with memory. Through her work, she reflects on how these concepts shape us in the place we inhabit from its physicality and the one that resides in us from memory, both concrete and malleable. As part of our information establishing a link between the reality of a place and the imagined one. Oradell Piller attained her BFA with a concentration in painting from the School of Fine Art and Design of Puerto Rico in 2018. Her work has been presented individually and collectively in spaces such as the Arsenal Della Punta Museum and Bahar Gallery and the Museum of Contemporary Art, Puerto Rico. So please welcome today's guest, distinguished fellow Ada del Pilar. Very exciting. I know. Three pro. Thank you. Thank you. I admire your system. Oh, thank you so much. Well, you know, I've been honing it for a while, so I'm excited about it. Very cool. Um. So. Okay. Order! I'm not going to try to say your full name because I'm embarrassed about how bad I'm a rolling my ass. It's so bad you give your full name to listeners. Yes, my name is Allah will be. La Ortiz added that you are Ortiz. Yes. And we were just your listeners. I'm here with. How do you describe yourself to you? Do you do you describe yourself a ceramic artist or how would you describe yourself as an artist? I describe myself more as a sculpture artist because there are like so many mediums that practice. I just maintain it as a sculpture practice and not specify that much. Mm hmm. Yeah. A few months ago, listeners, I was in Puerto Rico for the first time, and I went to the Contemporary Museum of Art. What is it called there? Is it? I want to say the handle for it was like M.C. the Contemporary Museum. Oh, usually we call it Mack. Mack? That's it? Yes. Most there are two contemporaneous, so we call it Mack. Okay. Okay. And I went there by myself to spend an afternoon. Of course, I walk in and I see a Christina Cordova on the walls. We're here at PENLAND School and Christina lives at PENLAND School and as a very beloved community member. And then I was walking around and I saw your work, which is so lovely because I saw your work installed. I liked it so much that I took a photo of it. Of who you are to remember. Hmm. And here I am a few months later, being asked to interview you. I could not love that more. Yeah. It's a small little world that we live in. Sure it is. And so out of your. Are you based in San Juan full time? I'm currently for the past almost two years. I'm based in Yemen. Okay. This is like a town, like 15 to 20 minutes far from San Juan. Okay. But it's still in, like in the metropolitan area. Okay. Okay. So kind of like a suburb. Yeah. Let's say. Yeah. And I want to just say, before we get started on our conversation, that I admire anybody who comes on a podcast when your first language is not English. Thank you. Yeah. So thank you for speaking English with me. Hopefully in the future, my Spanish will be able to practice together. I'm excited for that. Yeah, I just. It's something that I really want to get done. And so throughout the conversation, if there's ever a word or anything that's come to mind, please speak as much Spanish as you want. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. And I'm patient. If you need a moment to think something through. I got you, girl. Oh, good. It's cold outside. I'm not rushing to, like, walk right back outside. Me neither. On. I have for some reason to. Whenever I interview somebody, I always I'm like, how old are you? I am 28. You're 28? Yeah. I am ten years older than you. Wow. You carry yourself with much more grit, like you just came off so mature to me. Oh, like, in a very good way. Yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah, but I'm just 28 years old. I don't feel 28. Right. I feel maybe like I'm still at my 20, 26. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. But, yeah, I'm 28. Yeah. I mean, I think age is such a funny thing that it is. I always. I have a lot of friends that spanned decades. Right. Some of my closest friends are in their sixties and fifties. And I just think it's really interesting when you I ask for somebody's age, because I think that helps me understand the lens that they experience. Right. You know, if you're 28, you only have so many years in your life of experience. Mm hmm. Versus somebody who's in their forties or fifties. Right. Yeah. So I think what I was trying to compliment on is that you. I perceived you as somebody with far more experience in your field. Oh, I really appreciate that. Yeah. And do you for that. Okay. I have so many questions for you. So, first of all, you were were you born in the town that you're living in right now? Is that. No, I was born in a monitor, which is, say, a pueblo town in the center of Puerto Rico. Okay. But I was raised in Baton Keita's, so I always say I'm from Baton Keita's. Okay. And all my life, I was there. My childhood was there. My mother's side of the family is originally from Baton Keita's, but my dad's side from his family was from San Juan. Okay. So since very little of being in between those two places, Baton, Keita, San Juan. So that led me from a very early age to experience like both ends of the island in a way which are very different in in their lifestyle or the accessibility to things. So I was growing in between those two places. So forgive me for not already knowing this, but is San Juan the largest city in Puerto Rico? I'm not sure if it's the largest. I think there are towns are bigger, right, in terms of land, but so long it is it's the capital. So it's the town where most people live, right in Puerto Rico. And when you think about going to Puerto Rico, the airports there, the primary airport, so you kind of start there. And exactly. It's a big tourist hub. I feel like it is is the the place where it contains more offer to tourist. And many tourists do stay on that area. But currently there are like other places that are like bring in that touristic offer, let's say. Yeah, but someone still to this day maintains that the main focus when you visit Puerto Rico. Right. And I really wanted to explore outside of San Juan, but I bought my plane ticket the day before I went. It was a very last minute trip. Yeah. Because my friend Georgina, that year, she had her first solo exhibition at the gallery and. Barbara. Yes. And, and I was like, I'm going to show up for my friend. It's her first solo opening. And she was like, Yeah, come, I have an Airbnb. So I just came last minute. Yeah. So nice. I know you got lucky that you could travel the next day. Yeah, well, I know. I mean, you know what's really interesting from Philly, there's a lot of people that live in Philadelphia that go to Puerto Rico a lot because roundtrip tickets are like under $200. Yeah, right. Mine was $500 because I waited so late. But for me, the value I was willing to pay that because I love my friend and I didn't have to pay where I live state or anything. So, you know, it was it was good. Yeah, it worked out. But I did regret not getting to see more of the island because I just didn't have the opportunity. Right. But I would you know, it's like coming to America and visiting New York City and never going anywhere else. Right. And I feel like a lot of people do that when they come to America. So. Yeah, so did you ah did you go to school for art. Yes, I went to the Esquire. The in this I knew that Puerto Rico is just like the School of Fine Arts of Puerto Rico. Okay. Yeah. So I went there in 2013 and I graduated in 2018 and I did my BFA in painting. Oh, because I wanted to be a painter at first, but things change along the way. Right. But I did study there. My BFA is the School of Fine Art in San Juan. It's an old San Juan, actually. Oh, my gosh. Is it near? Is that kind of on the outskirts? And then there's that like old fort areas is just right in front of El Mora, which is the Fort Castle, let's say. Yes. Yeah, I was being such a creep because I was walking around by myself. Right, right. And I remember I was kind of following this. I was really obsessed with all the handles and metalwork in old San Juan, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I love your work. I was taking pictures of exactly what you make. And then I saw that building and I looked in and I could tell that there was like a pottery class. Yes. And so I started walking around the building to try to understand what it was. I didn't really have good signs to let you know. And to be honest, the advertising aspect of the schools, at least not the best and right to this day. Many people do not know that school exists. So there are many students, let's say, that want to study art and they do not know the school exist. Yeah, I never heard of it before. Yeah. And then they go to other colleges and then when they're there, maybe the faculty, they say to that student, Hey, have you considered the School of Fine Arts of Puerto Rico? And then they're like, What is this even real? Right? Yeah. So that's the way you kind of know of the school unless, you know, you know, people who have suggested that place to you before. But yeah, there is it. Just that one building then that I saw. There are two buildings. Okay, just one. One of the buildings they have the painting and the sculpture departments and there's other building which is just behind El Cultural Diwaniya, which is like a square kind of building. Okay. And just right behind there's the industrial design, printmaking and fashion art education. I think those are all the other departments there. Oh, man, I should have known as graphic design. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. I would have, like, walked in. I was. I was mean to. But what I what I saw, I thought I was like, oh, this might be like a ceramics school or something, what I like. And then I went to Christina Cordova's Instagram to see I was like, Do her tracking down. I'm just trying because I, I'm so always drawn to when I see things like that. So is that school is that school affordable? It is. It's pretty affordable. And because of many things happening back there, prices have gone a little bit more expensive in the the the price of the credits, but is still pretty affordable school. It's a public school. Oh, it's public. Yeah, it is public. For many years it belonged to the Institute of Puerto Rican Culture. Okay. But then since I think 2015 or 16, it became autonomous. Independent. Okay. So it has remained like that for now. And so when you are there as a student, what area of the city do you live in? I live in San Juan, also specifically in the area. I think it's called Puerto Nuevo, because I was curious about that with old San Juan. I mean, I think that is like very iconic when you think of San Juan, Puerto Rico. Yes. Those colorful buildings and the architecture. And then I was I was always wondering when I was walking through that, I was like, can I afford an apartment in this area? Is it like super boujee or. Yeah, I think probably ten years ago it would be more affordable. Right. But because there are so many things about displacement and tourist economy, specifically all San Juan, the prices have gone so, so high. So it's pretty difficult to live there right now. I work in old San Juan essay art teacher in it's also very difficult to just access and enter old San Juan because it's so crowded. Yeah I walked every time. Yeah. Yeah. From Myanmar I think is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. See look at me throwing out these. I'm not you see I was like, oh I have a Puerto Rican artist coming on. I've been there a collective of 72 hours, so that's more than enough. But I do have that. I got to see your school now. I know what that building was. So you graduate? Yeah. What was your degree in painting? That's right. Yeah. How do you get from painting to being a sculpture artist? It happened midway, the bachelor's degree. When I was at my third year of of my studies, there was a moment where I felt that painting was not satisfy me enough. In my personal practice, I always want to make sure that my problems with painting were only towards my own practice and not as a discipline on itself, but for me became very limited to the things I wanted to try to express. In a way, my work has always being related to domestic scenes family history. So my paintings were very about that, about my own family history, about memory. But towards that third year, you have the opportunity to take elective classes. Okay? So my first elective class was in ceramics, so over there was like my first let's see what's going on here because it's a very small department, but the type of work that was coming out of that studio was just so amazing and so inspiring And also the sculpture department, which was on the first floor and the painting was at the second floor. So I got to see from from the top building all of what happened, because it's a very public department. You can see things going on outside. And I really love the attitude sculptures having their own process. Yeah. So it was very attractive to me. So then I went to the ceramics studio and I loved it. And the professor in that time was Dara Rivera. She's an amazing sculpture and installation artist from Puerto Rico. So that was also my introduction to see the the huge scope of how can sculpture can become my, my own medium, let's say. So it was just like a big eye opener. Yeah. So the other two electives, they remained in ceramics. Okay. So that was my like my first sculpture attempt let's say. Right. Yeah. So the work I've seen of yours in a museum also. Congratulations on that. I mean, thank you. 28 and I'm like, oh, I saw your work in then Contemporary Museum of Art Imports. And one like, come on. Yeah, that's huge. And so what I saw there was. Molds. It looked like you molded something and then cast from that. So. And what you're working on here, you're also casting as well. Yes. Casting has become a huge way to create my my work. Mm hmm. Without work, specifically, I call them molds in situ. So it's like molds I make in a architectural place that I can identify. Yeah. So with that work, it's called Snow White. And there are, like, seven concrete reliefs. Yeah. And they have, like, sugar cane patterns on it. And it's actually a, um, a more. How can I say it? A relief? Yes, a relief I found in an abandoned building down in Fonseca. Ponce is a town in the south of Puerto Rico. Okay. And it has a very rich history towards the sugarcane industry. Mm hmm. And that's been a subject that I have been very interested for a long time. So right in front of the old central or the old sugar mill, there was this building that, according to some texts. And the community leader of that place was. It's called machete water. It was like a hospital for the sugarcane workers. Oh, like the infirmary? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly right. And also where they ate. Okay. So the the frame of the building was covered with all of those sugar cane reliefs. Oh, and for me, that was so interesting, because a relief in architecture is it's an ornamental object within the structure, but it it's a way to also communicate something that is supposed to be elevated or honored, let's say. So I saw that as a through architecture. A way to honor the sugar cane for me. Mm hmm. And for me, that was very odd, because considering the history behind the sugar cane industry, there's a lot of stories and is very oppressive. Mm hmm. Economy. And in. For me, that was, like, very disparate. Like, it didn't make sense for me. So it was so interesting. And then based on that, I, I just went there one day with one of my colleagues at us who said to me, in that moment, we just got the lather. We just got the silicone. We just went over it. Yeah. Because, yeah. You can't, like, take that off the building. Exactly. So you had to go there. I love that for you. Yeah, it's very fun. Very labor intensive. Right. But it's so rewarding at the end. So over there in C2, right. I made the surgical mold, then I take it home, and I created seven reproductions. Mm hmm. The reproduction also has some rough and reflective glass beads. So when the light illuminates, the piece is supposed to shine. Yeah. Subtly enough. The. The piece over there, the light was not as intense as is as it needed for it to bright, but it was like a reference to the sugar itself. So, yeah, that's how the piece was made. Well, glistening sugar canes. Yeah. So whenever I think of someone who says, Oh, I'm a sculptor, the first thing I wonder is, how do you make a living at that? Yeah, like. Uh huh. Yes. Listening. Yeah. But I mean, for you, since you graduated, what year did you finish up school? 2018. Okay. So you would have been 22? Yes. Yeah. 22. 23. Okay. Okay. Sure. Now what? What? When you graduated, what did you see yourself doing full time? I always ambition myself to to be a full time artist. And also, as soon as I graduated, there comes, you know, the those questions. Can I really make a living out of this? Right. Even though you're very passionate and you really want that to happen. Right. So to be honest, I did not have a clue of how to start. Right. But luckily enough, when you graduate from that school, there's like the exhibition of. Of the graduates. Yeah, like your MFA. I mean, not that it's an event. Yeah. Right. Under that anything. Yes. So it's also like a way of a portal for people from the art world to go there and see what's going on. Right. So I think that exhibition, in a way, was a very good starting point for people to know my work. And it started a type of interest. So. Almost right after I graduated, I received an opportunity to have a residency in an art residency at that. What's count? It was called Pound of Flesh. Okay. It was directed by three artists, Pedro Velez, Lilian Nieves. And what different numbers. So they just, like, offer me that opportunity. So there there was that moment where an artist residency. What is this? I never heard of this service. Just like so blessed or lucky to just have that right off the bat. Yeah. And that kept like a la it allowed me to bounce to other programs or other residency programs in the island after that. For example, I went to a residency called La Practica, which is from a artists run program called A Better Locale, in that you know, that that keeps opening doors for you in a way. So it wasn't like a choice per say. It's just something that happened. The opportunity was given you to get excited and it keeps snowballing. Yes. And towards those opportunities and your word gets to be more visible and people get to know it better. And then I'm rooting for them that there were like exhibitions. Yeah. And yeah, in other residencies, there was one that gave me my first solo show. Oh, yeah. In Caguas, which is a town also in the center of Puerto Rico. Okay. It was a gallery space called Aria. Look at the projectors. It ran for, I think, 15 years. It was a very important place to exhibit in Puerto Rico, right? In it gave many opportunities to emergent artists. And you mentioned it in past tense. It closed? Yeah, it closed. But it was a space run by a collector. Okay. HOLZER And on this. CASTRO That he's a collector in Puerto Rico who supports many emerging artists. Right. So even though that's space close, it transforms into artist studios. So there are two artists over there with their studio. So even though it's not an exhibition place, two very good artists have their secure space to just maintain their practice. Yeah. So. Yeah, so something I think a lot about with residencies. I mean, we are at an artist residency right now and we are both in the privileged position where we were both invited for this residency, which is. Yeah, the best way to get a residency. Yeah. Usually a lot of residencies. Whenever students ask me about them, I'm like, well, they're not all created equal. And the term residency can mean something very different depending on where you are. Yeah. And so you need to do your research and understand what it can offer you. For me, my definition of a residency is somewhere that will. I don't have to pay money for that experience, and that's not always the same for everybody. But for me, if I do a residency, I financially want to be supported. You're a distinguished fellow at Penance era or Penance residency right now and that is invited, correct? Yeah. And you are fully funded to be here. So and part of my definitions, this is the best residency for you ever. So like that first residency that you got, that you got invited again, a nice big warm hug. Fill in for that. Yes. What did they give that? Were you financially supported? Because residency hopping can be a way to support yourself, but it also can be really expensive in certain ways. Yeah. What did that first residency give you? Independence Day. They did give it gave me a stipend. Yeah. So. Oh, this residency. This residency. Oh, you were meaning another residency. Well, that's just that first one that you got that kind of helped you right out of school. I was wondering if there was financial gain to it, because at the moment it was not and neither of them have any financial support. Right. Apart from the one in was they did gave you like a monthly stipend and was residency for six months. So. Okay. That's nice. That was very nice. Yeah. It was 200 per month. Okay. And being a very young artist for me, that was like, yes, I can make that work. I can make that work. I mean, the car payment, I don't have a mortgage. Right. But the previous ones didn't have an A stipend or anything related to that. Right. They did offer you, of course, to the space on exhibitions, networking, which all has monetary value. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Other residency that did gave me a. Super economical ship in West Mass MOCA. Oh, you did something at Mass MOCA? Yeah. That's your order. You're killing it. I'm trying. That's the deal. What did you do at Mass MOCA? Well, at Mass MOCA, they have the residency, but the. They have a Puerto Rican artist fellowship. Oh, okay. So that's how I got in. And they offer you a travel stipend and a materials to spend? Yeah, which was super enough to just get your travel tickets and then be there, get your materials. And in that residency, because it's also so far away and it didn't required it per se, but they were, they suggest, no way to create things that are very are easy to take home. So it was like the first time. Yeah. Which made sense, especially with the sculptor. Yeah. First I was like, no, I can do it. And then I get there. Oh, no. Yeah. This is a challenge. This is a challenge. Yeah. So what's your first time? After many years that I came back to creating, like, an image. Oh, okay. So what's for me? The way to reconcile with drawing. And I also made cyanotype and trying to kind of, like, appropriate the esthetic of the architectural blueprints. Mm hmm. So it was, like, a way to still connect to my work in in it's concept, but right to to see how else I can bring other perspectives. So the things about the architectural plans or drawings or blueprints became the base for that residency. So it was very cool to see what else you could do apart from sculpture. Yeah. And but yeah, right now I'm back at it. So. Yeah. What did you feel about? Because as we record this, everyone is so cold outside. Like we looks like we're inside a snow globe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally. Yeah, yeah. I can only imagine how you're feeling if I'm this cold and miserable but environment, right? Because your work is also so related environment. But I think about when you go to these different artist residencies that you're completely immersed in a new environment and that can be a really great thing, but also it can be something that might be a struggle. How was it? How long were you at Mass MOCA? One month. Okay, so that's not too bad. But what did you think of it up there? Because it's a very specific space. It is a very specific space. And you don't get to know that until you're there. Yeah. Yeah, you can at first. Maybe it creates assumptions that say in there really other Puerto Rican artists that went to that same fellowship. So I have some feedback from them, right? In a very positive one, yeah. But for me, it was a first time to have a residency outside of Puerto Rico. So it was like, what is this? How. How am I going to get there? Everybody here is white. Yeah. And that for me, at first, it. It could feel a little bit intimidating. Yeah. Because you don't know to which kind of people you're going to, you know, encounter and share your space. But luckily enough, we were ten artists in total and we just connected so well. Oh, there's all ten. There's ten of you. Yeah, there's ten of us. Right? Each of us have a private studio space. Okay. They're back at the apartments. You share your your apartment with two or three other people. Okay. But it was so amazing. Like, everyone had a very different background. They were all from very different contexts. And it was also a place to engage and to contrast our own experiences. And how how do we make it here? How do we how have we sustain our art careers? Right. And you get to know all like the the strategies they they put in practice on their own work to make it work. Right. Finance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it was very interesting. And, and yeah, the connection aspect between all of us was so amazing. So it didn't felt weird. It didn't felt I didn't felt like an outsider. That's what it's all about. Yeah. And that was so cool in, in that for me, that was my main fear, right? Because I've been to the United States before, but with family or just to visit my dad, who lives in Tampa, for example. So it wasn't like an on your own experience and go out there and explore the world by yourself. Right. You're right. But I was very lucky to have a very good experience or were there. So I feel like, okay, I've been at Penlan a lot, right? I lived here for the fellowship. It feels like coming home here in some ways. So I really can't understand. I mean, I remember the first time I came here, my jewelry mentor had been to Penlan and I was so nervous. Like, I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know what kind of shoes to bring or what clothes like where I was going to be. Yeah. You know, it can be really hard to pack for something like that. How did you feel when you got invited to come to PENLAND? What was your first impressions of what it would be like to come here? Like, how did you navigate? Yeah. For me, it was a huge surprise because it just happened all of the sudden. Right. And it started with a message on Instagram. Really? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And actually, the person who wrote to wrote to me was Lesley Noel. Right. And she's like, Hey, Christina Cordova, I just nominated you for this opportunity. This is my email. If you're interested, write to me. Right. I was just like, What can this happen? Through social media DMS, I've gotten a lot of opportunities through my DM. Yes. Yeah. That's a very interesting topic, though. Yeah. So then I got to her and then she sent me, you know, all the information and a winter residency in the form of the residency, the time, the, the help you get here in terms of the spend and everything. Yeah. And I just like, went for it. Yes. Thinking it. Of course. When when you're reaching the date of arriving here. Right. Things get very real. And then you have to prepare all your stuff before you come here. So I had to buy the materials. Send them over here. Did you have to buy a winter coat as we were walking? You had one? Yeah. I looked at each coat and I was like, her coat is better than mine. And she was in Puerto Rico. I bought that for the Mass MOCA. Does that make sense now? Because I was like, she must have as we were walking because I do not have a warm enough coat for this is like, why is her coat better than mine? You are observant, including in Puerto Rico. Yeah, it does. That is the residency jacket. Oh, my God. I love that. Yeah, there was a snowstorm when I was back there, so. Yeah, it's even colder than here. I mean, it's pretty far northeast. Yeah, it was pretty cold. Did you reach out to Christina or anyone that had been here before? Because there's. Mm. I did meet. Well, first of all, I've met Christina's brother before. Briefly here, though, but when I was in Puerto Rico, hanging out with people, I was like, I only know one person, Christina Cordova And someone's like I'm really close friends with their brother. Oh. And then there was another guy who was a ceramic artist here, not last summer, but the summer before. When I say his handle's like Mondo Sense or something. Manuel Mendoza. Yeah. Yes. It's good that you said that because a man, when he went to a did he came here for a residency. He came here. There was something where Christina was inviting Puerto Rican ceramic artists. Yeah, that's the I think that's the way back in Puerto Rico we are beginning to know about. PENLAND Yeah, because Christina Cordova, she has just taken this wonderful initiative to just invite Puerto Rican artists back over here, I think, for a month. Yeah, he yeah, it was long time. Yeah. So I've I've no Manuel Mendoza. He's an awesome artist and other artists that have come here by that opportunity. Yeah. So I think the difference is that Christina is on hands. What do you do in that residency? Right. So it's very you engage a lot with her. Right. But here the difference is that she nominated me. Right. So I'm I am going to meet her after this. But which is so cool. But it's it's more independent over here. Like, you know, every fellow that's over here, you just you're doing your thing here and you do. And you don't know who's going to be in the studio. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, that's how I got here. I love that. Well, I know, especially with the Distinguished Fellows or there's so many initiatives that Pena was doing to focus on PENLAND Winter Residency Aura. You have to come back here during the summer. It is way you'll be like, this is a completely I mean, I hope you teach. I mean, yes, once you're in PENLAND life, you're in it forever. Fingers back and summertime is a completely different place here. It's yeah, you know, 2 to 3 times as many people on campus and it's green. Yeah, it's a green. And it's just so much happening, so much energy. So they want to just have Penlan winter residency because it's a little bit more calm to be a time to invite individuals who've never been here. Oh I'd to kind of like ease you into it. Yeah. Like makes yeah. Kind of create this space for introduce. And expand. Our community is more intimate. It is more intimate, and I think it can be less intimidating in some ways if you are coming from, I mean, to go from Puerto Rico to land in a craft school in the middle of North Carolina. Oh, yeah. When it's like the middle of the summer and the busiest time. I mean, I'm sure you would be fine, but this gives you a different introduction to it that I think is really lovely. Yeah. To have these, like, spaces and time to see people in a different way. Yeah, it's, it's very, very amazing. And specifically at the studio. Um, in, in, in each of the studios. Right. But being there, it's, it's a different format because everyone's working at the same time within the same space. Yeah. Instead of you just having your own space and just being there working. So it's like a very collective context, let's say. Yeah. Which is very nutritious. And everyone's so open over here and so talented to you know what? I love the fact that you just use the word nutritious to describe that. And now and I don't think like somebody who's English was first would use that but right that is a perfect way to say it because it's like feeds you in a different way. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm going to use that in the interview. I use that. I'm going to take that. Nice. That's good. So you do you have a job outside of your art practice right now? I do. Okay. It's not a full time. It's just the Saturdays. Oh, but I am a art teacher of La Liga, the Art de, which is like the art league. Okay. In Puerto Rico, it's located in Old San Juan. Right. So it's still mentioned, though. It's like similar to the format of PENLAND in a way, because it's like more independent studies. Like, if you're someone who wants to learn about ceramics or photography, painting or whichever medium, you just go there. Right. And you take a class and you can repeat as many times as you like. Yeah. So you just go by yourself and learn. So over there, I teach. I have three classes, but they're both drawing and painting, like for students from five years old to 12 years old. Wow. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's. I have that on Saturdays in the rest of the of the week. It's just full on. On my own practice. Wow. Yeah. So that supplements your income and then everything else you're doing, you're getting support from that as well. Yeah, I always describe it as a wave. It's it's like a wave career. There are times where something happens and then money comes and then you're good, you sold a piece or whatever. And then I have to sustain that for the time where the wave goes down. Right. So that's how I pretty much describe the way income goes within my practice. Luckily enough, um, during this past few years and, and this year too, like there are more things coming up which is very exciting. So like the, the year gets full with, with stuff to do. So that's very cool. Like to have like 20, 24 almost covered or book which is like a kind of an, a new experience now. So it's very exciting and I very much look forward to that. And yeah, like I like how you described it in waves. Yeah, it does me. For me, that's like the best word to describe it. Yeah. And also it can feel very it can cause inserted. I'm not sure how to translate that word. Words would say it again. Inserted. I don't know if maybe fear let's say can cause fear to, to just make the anxiety a little. Yeah, I think that's a better term. It does. It can cause anxiety, too, to depend on something that's not so consistent. Consistent, right? Oh, yeah. But I. I had to learn to trust in that. And by trusting that things on their own way have. Manage. Very well. I'll work. I'll have work out. So. Yeah, of course. That's all. Always. You have to do the work. Right. But it just doesn't come like. Oh, here you go. Yeah. You have to work very hard and also maintain the quality of your work more, but more than the quality. The integrity. Yeah, that's so important in there. I've seen artists that because they have to live, they. They have to sacrifice part of that integrity. Mm hmm. But for me, that's non-negotiable. Yeah. Even though sometimes, for example, my work tends to be very large scale. Yeah, people don't by large scale. That's why I keep asking how you make your living. Yeah. How do you sell that? It's. It's it's weird. Like, right. There has been people that do buy that, and it's just like or museum collection, museum collections and also museum commissions. Dimock pay you for the work that's in the museum right now. And they paid for the production. And in 2021, I think they asked me for a commission. So I did a work for them in a they have a program called MAK in a barrio which is like a they asked artists to identify one of the communities that they have on their list and creates. Any type of art experience within that community. Okay. So I did a work that was presented in Catania, which is like a very small town in the north of Puerto Rico. Mm hmm. And they also they encourage you to investigate what issues are happening over there. So, for example, in the case of that of that town, Catania, there were some issues regarding the level of the of the ocean because of the climate change, climate change and displacement and architecture, in a way. So you just get introduced to these things that are going on and you have to consider them to create a work based on that community. Yeah. So that was one of the major things that happened, for example. And good on Mac for paying you. Yeah. Matt has done a very nice job supporting artists and, and it, I think it's one of the very few museums that do do their best to support artists. Right. Right, yeah. So do you have gallery representation? No, you don't. I don't. If you're listening. Hello. Because it's interesting when I think about what my connection to getting to Puerto Rico was, it was through my friend Georgina. But her connection was seeing Christopher, who and Manuela who run and barter at Mexico Art Week. Right. So have you shown at Art Weeks at all? Um, Miami Art Week last year, 2023. Oh, you did? I did. That's a big one. Yeah, it was a place called ten North Arts. Okay. It's located in Opa-Locka, which is like 40 ish, minutes from, like, the center of Miami, I guess. Okay. So they made it like a satellite exhibition. It was curated by Abdul Segarra and Kelly Serratos, and they made like a gathering of Puerto Rican artists. Okay, so that was like the the first experience. But actually with Christopher and Manuela within Bahala, as soon as I get back, I'm going to exhibit with them at Bahala. So the pieces right now are being made in paying them? Yeah, they're going to that space. That is so exciting. Yeah, I'm having a moment with Puerto Rico. I mean, I went there once, but it just like they had to come back. The thing. Well, yes, please. I definitely want to. Yeah. And the thing that struck me was just in the small amount of time I met, everybody I met was incredible people in the opening and bachata was huge there, so many people there. And so I just got this sense and this feeling there that Puerto Rican artists are really supported. The community is really supportive of each other. Yeah. And I just kept hearing about, Oh, this person does this cool thing and this cool thing. Like, I definitely want to come back and do a series there. It's a very small community. We all, in a way, know of each other by in person or by name, right? So like the the way to get it done is just like supporting ourselves. And there are some various artists from spaces that yeah, have done a great job supporting. Also artists like for example, there's a gallery called El Kilometer, which is run by Joe Tirado and Cullen Rivera. They're both artists, and for the past ten years they have been one of the leading artist run galleries that support, you know, artists by offering them exhibitions. Right. Also another place called a lobby and in behalf, of course. So yeah, those have became like very important organisms to to support ourselves. And it has been a very great way, a very nice platform to, you know, try to maintain your career within the island. Right. And so Puerto Rico, as a U.S. territory, I won't make any assumptions about what kind of funding is what kind of support systems are available there as funding. Right. Like in different countries like Sweden, I just had someone on the podcast where they talk about it's fairly easy for artists to get grants from the government to support themselves. What kind of funding? Because there are so many initiatives in Puerto Rico, I'm like, Is this all grassroots? Is this everybody just doing their own thing? Is there really good funding and grants that you can apply for? I think in the past years there have been like a resurgence of a lot of, um, I'm, how do you say that's not financial aid but like grants. Grants, exactly. Yes. So word. Okay. Okay. Like, for example, there was a time where, um, the Mellon Foundation was trying. Traveling to Puerto Rico back and forward and visit. And we say that one more time. Melon, Milos. Oh, I know it. I think they're based in New York City. Okay. Okay. Don't quote me on that. No, I think so. But it was a foundation that got very interesting supporting art practices from Puerto Rico. And just they visited a lot of places and spaces and they opened a grand opening for you to apply and be funded for three years. Oh, wow. Yeah. And and also there has been some grant local grants, I think because of the pandemic. It has kind of I think there are more lesser opportunities within the local system right now. There are some. Right. But in terms of like federal organizations, I do think about the Mellon Foundation also. There was a time I do remember a foundation for contemporary arts there at Grand and that was another one. So to be very honest, it's not something that I have been very aware of it. But I do know that Puerto Rico since the Hurricane Maria, it it did gather a lot of attention in within the art world, many grants from United States specifically. And another platform did offer Puerto Rican artists to, you know, help or and also, I think because of that same hurricane, also, the somehow the the art scene in Puerto Rico became more visible in a way. Yeah. Which reminds me of, for example, the Whitney exhibition two years ago, though. Oh, yeah. Because Junie, who I met, I think he had a piece in that. I don't remember him. Yeah, but what was that about? Was there like a specific Puerto Rican artists exhibit? It was an exhibition created by a Marcela Guerrero. She's a Puerto Rican curator. She's been working in the Whitney for a long time. Oh, cool. And she did a exhibition called Mercy Stone Mundo Poe's Oracle. And it was like a gathering of Puerto Rican artists. And she traveled to Puerto Rico and she scouted and then they created like a yeah, like an institution type exhibition of Puerto Rican art. So that also kind of made more visible art practices back in Puerto Rico. So I think I don't know how I feel about this, but in a way, catastrophe or crisis has been a lot of a main thing that has created more visibility towards Puerto Rico. Yeah, and that's something that I still, you know, struggle with because somehow I felt for a moment that the expectation of Puerto Rican art had to be about the hurricane or it had to be about rebuilding or rebuilding. Right. So that it created that that thing like, oh, if you're a Puerto Rican artist, you have to talk about this, right? If you're a Puerto Rican artist, you had to do art like this. So I do remember in a moment feeling that pressure. Right. But at the same time, there there's so much diversity that in the has blossom more than all those expectation let's say. Yeah so I think it's just very beautiful how things have played out. Played out. Yeah. Thankful for the visibility but yeah. But keeping your integrity, you're making work about what you want. And also, what does it mean to be Puerto Rican. Yeah, right. In terms of being an art is how in a culture like you're sharing it. Yeah, exactly. So I think it's very important to just be open to any experience, you know, and and not let yourself be labeled too to something. Right. Because of your culture or because of your background of what happened in your in your countries. It's for me, I feel that that's that was a factor that I had to fight right in for some time. And but yeah, I relate to that because I grew up on a reservation. I'm Osage and I'm making work about that now, but I never have. Yeah, and I've never I've had people mentioned to me like, well, I've never made work that looks native because it's not true to me. It's not that integrity. And what does that even mean and what does that even mean? Yeah, it's somebody who has expectations of what native work should look like. Wants to is the same. Yeah, yeah. But I am doing working with like beading, which is very connected to Osage called. Sure. But in my own way. Right. I think that's the beautiful thing. In your own way. In your own way. Right. Yeah. Because what you're working on here, it's interesting. On my camera roll, I had pictures of all that beautiful metal work. And what how would you refer to it? Gratings or what do you call those? I always say iron fences. Iron fences. I'm not sure if that's the best way to describe it, but that's how I usually describe them. And for somebody else, this is going to sound so naive today, and I apologize. Okay. But with that, everywhere, I was like, oh, why are these iron gratings everywhere? Is it because this island is prone to tropical storms? And so you always have iron gratings across your windows in the front of your buildings, is that it? Because that's what I made an assumption about, which I know is ridiculous. One of the reasons yeah, I think there's many reasons, but I think the main thing about them, of course, is a way to create security. Your home security. Yeah, of course. That's pretty obvious. But I think the the part that I'm very interested in, I'm not sure of, I think there are different meanings depending on the dweller of the house, the samples, the ornaments. Yeah. So my could was just pretty. Of course, for some people can be an ornament, for some people can be a sense of security, for some people can be a way to protect themselves from hurricanes or storms. Yeah. And also, there is a big history behind that, that craft, let's say. Mm hmm. But for me, the the interesting part is, how can I take care of my house? But how can I make that necessity look pretty? Right. So it becomes an ornament? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there, um, that brings an element of identity in a way, because, you know, those patterns are not there because they're just they're They're a esthetic decision of who lived there. Right. Right. So it's a reflection of identity and that's what I really like. But at the same time, it's a way to create territory. Right? Yeah. This is my space. And this is your space. And this is this is you're you're establishing a position between your own experience in the house and the in the outsider, let's say. Yeah. So that relationship between the private and the public and also that reminds me of the balconies, which is a very popular thing in the Caribbean to have a balcony. Yeah. And in other places too. But I've read before that a balcony is almost like a theater, is the part of the home that you want to people to look at and express who you are. Mm hmm. Right. But there's a there's a limit. There's a boundary in that is the iron fence, let's say, so that all of those playful elements for me they are just suggests so more about who resides there and how. Also memory is constructed within this places in and in those things become almost like symbols. Yeah. Like everywhere you go, you. You see them, for example. They're all over there. Yeah. And it's very interesting. In back where I lived in parakeets when I was a child, when I was a child, I'm sorry. My home did not have recess. Oh, interesting. Because it I think this is just a theory. I think my my mom, who lived still lives in that house. She felt secure. So she she didn't have the need in the neighbors to to put these things. But when I traveled to San Juan because of my that, everyone has everyone has them. Has them. Yeah. Right. So that's it's very interesting. And it suggests about a lot about historical processes in Puerto Rico and the Caribbean. Mm hmm. So, yeah. So you mentioned that this year is going to be a pretty good year for you. Yeah. You're at Penn, then went to residency. Yes. As a distinguished fellow. I mean, kicking off the year pretty well. Yeah. What is you go back, you are exhibited in Barbara, but do you what is your next big experience for 2024? Um, the next one. There's an exhibition there. It was a triennial before. It was like a printmaking triennial in that it's called LA Polygraph, aka the Puerto Rico E Caribe in Latin America. So it's like a very big exhibition triennial that exposed printmaking made in Puerto Rico, in the Caribbean and in Latin America. Okay. So it wasn't a huge thing before, but because of the many things that have happened, it hasn't been done in ten. Years. So now they're like creating a revival of that exhibition, but it's no longer called a triennial. They just calling it LA Body graphic. So there are only 28 artists that they selected. And one of them, well, it's me. Well, I miss you. I love you're like, okay, I'm going to humble myself. I'm in it. Yes, I ask. That's incredible. There's 28. There's just 28. When did you get asked? Like when did you hear about. It was last year, actually. And the curators visited and they chose a work. They chose cyanotype because it's close to the, you know, the printmaking parameters, let's say. So that's going to be, I think, April. And what city in autumn one. Oh, it'll be in San Juan. Yeah. I mean is with the Caribbean and Latin America, like where is it going to be? Yeah. Oh, that exhibition used to travel along the Caribbean and Latin America. Okay. It hasn't been always in Puerto Rico. Right? But it was the same exhibition then travel to another country, you know, and. But it will be the same type of gathering, let's say. Mm hmm. There's that exhibition. There's also another exhibition, I think, in March in the Dominican Republic. Okay. In a gallery called Kazatchkine. And I think is going to be a satellite event for the mega art fair. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And there are other visits are going to happen this year that may lead to other stuff. Right. Right. Which I cannot say yet. Yeah, no. But hopefully fingers crossed that they're going to happen. And yeah, that's big. Oh, yeah. I feel so happy. Yeah. So with a laugh, a fotografia. A polygraph figure for a poly graphic. Graphic? Yeah. Which is like printmaking is printmaking. Polygraph. Because, like, uh. Oh, poly people. Why? Yeah, which means many, like, a lot of graphic refers to the printmaking. So it's like the many ways artists have served the printmaking. And, you know, it's it's like a strategy to see the expand field of printmaking, let's say. Did they buy your cyanotype? Not yet. I don't know if they intend to. Right. Maybe buy you art or or give something to the artists. Right. But hopefully, yeah. I mean, and it's kind of I mean, it's in your backyard. You can walk over the print. Yeah. Yeah. And you get to be there present for the opening and everything. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's when I come back. I'm already planning. Yeah. On I could talk to you so much but we, we should probably wrap up so you can get back to the studio. We're in the final days of the residency now. Yeah, we're on Tuesday. So tomorrow's the last studio day. Yeah, maybe Thursday, but Thursdays, like more to studio, happy and clean. They get very they get that. They get like, no, you got to stop. Okay. Do you feel that this time here has served what you wanted it to like? Do you feel like you've gotten done what you wanted to do here? For sure. And at first I was not so clear about what could happen. I had an idea. But the resources here have has been so amazing in what I've done in two weeks. It's it's been like a like an old surprise for me because everything's here and and I could advance my work in a way that I maybe couldn't back home, maybe things that it took here two weeks could have got back home a month by example. So I feel so, so good that I could like prove myself some aspects of my own work. But more than that, to meet all these incredible artists over here and talk to them and just contrast our own experiences and and find new meanings towards our practices and, and different things that surround us. So this experience has helped shaped or define things that I did not expect to define here, but it was the right moment and the right place to do. Right. That's a that sounds like a very time. Very well spent. Yeah, yeah, yes. Yeah. I can't wait for you to come back to Penlan. Oh, me. Me too. Okay, listeners. Well, this has been another episode of Perceived Value, the podcast broaching the subject of value with artists. As always, thank you for listening. Perceived Value is a podcast recorded and produced by me, Sarah Rachael Brown. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram. As at perceived value extremist directly from our website at perceived valued podcast dot com or listen on iTunes Stitcher Google Play. Just don't forget to rate and review us. Thanks for listening.