Unknown: Hi. My name is Sarah Rachael Brown. I'm a 30 something year old woman and I live in Philadelphia. I'm a contemporary jeweler and like many others, I am an artist trying to make a living. On this podcast, I'm going to broach the subject of value. I'll be talking to studio artists and performers, educators and administrators and anyone else attempting to combine their creative endeavors with how they get a paycheck. Hi listeners. Are we friends online? You can find me at Sarah Rachel Brown on Instagram and you can find the podcast at Perceived Value on Instagram and Facebook. You can also become my patron on Patreon. It is a monthly subscription platform where you sign up to support me and my work, pay whatever amount you want each month, and all proceeds for February, March and April will be donated to my friend and community member Kristen Shiga while she rebuilds her career in studio practice after having battled cancer the past couple of years. I mean, she's still battling it. So her Go Fund Me is going to be linked in the description of the podcast if you want to donate directly. And thank you to my new patrons. I saw a few people sign up last month. Means the world to me. Thank you so much. The podcast is also a partner and monthly supporter of Crafting the Future, an organization working to increase access to creative enrichment by connecting bipoc artists with opportunities to help them thrive. I have linked their information in the podcast description. I have been a partner with them a few years. I had Corey Pemberton, one of the co-directors of the. I think he's just the director, but co-founder of Crafting the Future on the podcast. He's a few episodes back. You should check it out because he's a wonderful human in talks all about what crafting the future is. As I record this intro, I am ten days away for leaving for Munich, Germany, for Munich Jewelry Week. I am stressed, overwhelmed, excited. All of the things I am, all the things because I have not made or show new jewelry work for a few years. So of course, the artisan me is going through some serious self-doubt. It's all part of the process. I love being an artist. If you are attending Munich Jewelry Week, I want to connect with you. I'm showing with my curatorial collective, JBI Collective. You can find us on the current obsession map as three x USA three times USA is three exhibitions by U.S. based artists in one space during Munich Jewelry Week. The exhibitions are unfamiliar. US That's JBI Collective A Call for Darkness, which is Aaron P Dekker and Stephen Kepi and Tasty, a student exhibition put on by GV Collective members who have mentored students. Our reception is on Thursday afternoon from 2 to 5 p.m. and if you want to see my face, that's probably the best time to find me. I'm going to be jumping around a lot. You know how it goes, but you can follow. Now, this this Instagram account name is long. It's going to be in the description of the podcast, but it is. Three X USA Underscore M.J. W 2024 for all the details of our exhibition. And I want to give a warm hello and thank you to my listener, Nora Kovacs. This German based artist will be showing with a collective from Berlin at the Handwork and Design Fair and kindly shared a voucher for me to get in. Thank you, Nora. If you're going to jewelry week, the design fair is a must see. It's kind of the center of what everything rotates around. Right. And I'm hope you'll say hello to Nora and Booth b 1.741. It's in the podcast description. A few summers ago, I was at a gallery opening and my friend Leslie introduced me to today's guest. At first I didn't recognize who she was sitting next to, but I certainly knew who he was. Leslie actually got up out of her seat and told me to sit down because she knew. She knew. She knew we'd hit it off. She has the superpower of being a connector and has on multiple occasions introduced me to individuals who have had a lasting presence or impact on my life. The quality that she exemplifies is one that I continue to strive for. And if you have no idea what I'm talking about or what a connector is. Read Malcolm Gladwell's The Tipping Point. You'll thank me later. So I meet this incredible individual in the summer of 2022, and I mentioned I have a podcast, but I don't want to come on too strong because immediately I knew I wanted this person on my podcast. So, you know, I just kept a casual I asked for his contact information and that I'd keep in touch. And so I certainly do. I follow up and in January of 2023, we are able to reconnect in Asheville, North Carolina, to record an interview. I knew he was a collector of craft, so when he suggested that we record at his house, I got very excited. He was very generous with his time and gave me a tour of his beautiful home and described the meaning behind the pieces he had commissioned or collected. It was a really lovely day. So here I am in February of 2024 when I am finally sharing my conversation with Andrew Glasgow. You know, sometimes the best episodes take 2 to 3 years to make a reality. Andrew Glasgow is the retired executive director of the American Craft Council, an Alabama native. Mr. Glasgow received an art history degree from the University of Alabama at Birmingham after three years as assistant curator of decorative arts at the Birmingham Museum of Art. Mr. Glasgow joined the Southern Highland Craft Guild in Asheville as a curator of education. Four years later, he became the assistant director of Blue Spiral One, a gallery that focuses on the arts and crafts of the South. He returned to the Southern Highland Craft Guild as director of programs and collections before being named executive director of the Furniture Society in 2027. Mr. Glasgow was hired as executive director of the American Craft Council, then located in NYC. He retired due to a long term illness in 2009. The PENLAND School of Craft recently created the Andrew Glasgow Writer's Residency, which provides time for writers, scholars and curators to work on topics designed to advance the field of craft. He lives in Asheville, North Carolina. And fun fact we share a birthday, so please welcome today's guest. Andrew Glasgow. Okay. I think we're pretty good. All right. All right. Great. Andrew. Well, I want to say thank you for letting me come into your beautiful mid-century modern house to do this interview. I will say it's like the best view I've had during an interview in quite a while. Yeah, I love it. Well, you remind me of what that mountain's called over there. Mount Pisgah. Oh, okay. Hence the bear name. Yeah. Although I think PESCA was way before the beer. Right. River. River rate listeners. I'm in Asheville, North Carolina, which I love Asheville. I lived in this area for two years while I was studying at PENLAND. And so you inherently come to Asheville a lot to get away and go to fancy restaurants and etc.. Andrew More fancy compared to what's near Penlan? Yeah. How long have you lived in Asheville? I moved here in 1988. Oh. So, quite a while. Quite a while. Where were you originally from? Was from a small town in Alabama on the farm. And I moved to Birmingham to go to school. And then I worked immediately for the Birmingham Museum of Art. So I was just in Florida. And a lot of people from Alabama vacation in Florida? Mm hmm. I've never been to Alabama. What would you describe your small town like? Like really, really small. Yeah, like 2000 people. Oh, that's just like Apalachicola, whereas. Yeah. Yeah. And much less forward than Apalachicola. Right. In the mountains of northeast Alabama. Okay. And everybody knew everybody else. Yeah. Were you excited to leave? Yes. I'm not. Wait. I mean, no offense, Apalachicola, but I think 2000 people is a little small for me. Beautiful. But I don't know if I could handle it. Yeah, it. It wasn't beautiful. It wasn't beautiful. No. And so what university did you go to in Birmingham? University of Alabama. At Birmingham. Oh, okay. Simple. Naomi, love that. Did you go there because you got a great scholarship or that it was closed? No, I did not get any scholarships. I had work study. And because I grew up on a farm, I looked into animal care. It was a cancer center there. And I looked into animal care for experiments and going to work. Study, job taking care of labs, animal population. Oh, okay. So how long did that lasts in your studies? Um, I had work study for three and a half years, and it was always in that lab. But the animal thing ended after about four months because I was able to take care of them in about a quarter of the time that the professor thought it should take. Oh, because I wasn't afraid of the animals. Right. You grew up on a farm? Yeah. And so I was able to move them very quickly. The rabbits and the mice and the rats. Hmm. Just been in them, and I pre loaded all the cages. And so just, you know, I figured out how to do that, really. And then he wanted me to take over his age or for the lab. There were 28 doctors in that lab and is a highly publishing lab. So I also could type. Sorry about that. Ooh. What's that? Your coffee. Oh. There we go. So I went to UAB to be a pre Denton student because I had never had any dental work done and my teeth were great. My mother was a very much of a perfectionist about teeth care. Yeah. And so I went to be pre debt and then I went on a tour of the dental school. Mm hmm. And I was freaked out. That is so funny. I was pre dentistry when I went to school the first time because I saw what my orthodontist house looked like. And I was like like, okay, if his house is that big, pre dentistry is for me. Yeah. And I think it was like two weeks into my first like pre biologie blah blah blah and I was like oh no, never mind. This is not what I had in mind. I couldn't deal with the blood. I had no idea that there was that much surgery and dental work. And yeah, you know, because I'd never had anything done. Oh, that's so funny. Okay. So did you pay for your own schooling? Was that your responsibility? Oh, my family did, and I did. And I worked work, study, and nice. But I didn't have any school debt. You didn't? Okay. And then when you. So can you tell listeners how you would describe your career? I mean, most people, for example, you'd be like, I'm a curator, I'm a blah, blah, blah. Like, how do you describe yourself? Well, I'm a craft historian, okay. With a degree in art history, in traditional art history from UAB, which had a really good program. The head of it was from Marshall, actually. Oh, wow. And. He a really good teacher. He was a graduate of Princeton, and he wanted me to go for more. He would have gotten me a scholarship to get a Ph.D. at Princeton, but I didn't want to go to school. I was done after your undergrad degree. Yeah. And I went to I had a museum studies class my senior year, and it was taught by two people that have been very important in my life, Gail Andres, who was subsequently the director of the Birmingham Museum. And my first job was with a woman named Bryan Adams. She was head of their decorative arts department. And I, I, we had a grant to go around the state to find indentify photographs and catalog Alabama made decorative arts. So through this class your senior year with the professors you really deeply connected with and resonated with, you got your first job out of undergrad. And I had promised my parents when I changed from pre to art history, which is never a great phone call. No, it certainly is not. But I said, if you'll go with me on this journey, I'll have a job at the Birmingham Museum when I graduate. Okay. And how far was that from home? Like an hours wise. Like it was an hour and a half. Because you've mentioned your mother. I mean, I came over last night and it seems like your mother was somebody very special in your life. She was very large. Yeah, she was very close to you. She was very close to me, even though she really didn't know me. Right. And that's okay. She didn't really need to know me. Right. You're talking about, like, your orientation in terms of sexual orientation, etc.. It just, you know, she didn't want that. And she was a fundamental Baptist. Oh, I made best friends with somebody in Florida whose mother was a fundamental Baptist. Yeah, it's a different life. True. And I think in getting to know her, too, she definitely navigates the world in a certain way to protect her mother from some things. Yeah. I mean, I think we all feel a certain amount of responsibility to the people who brought us into the world. And for my case, I have two brothers. They're 17 and 19 years older than I am. Right. So my dad was 49 and my mother was 41 when I was born. Oh, wow. And I don't know. I've talked to other kids of older parents, but there were two other families in my hometown there that the mothers were in their mid-forties. Right. So I had I didn't realize it was that odd until much later. Yeah. Hmm. So you get this job at the museum? I do. I, I had to go to a summer institute at the Museum of Early Sun Decorative Arts and University of North Carolina. Greensborough. Mm hmm. It's called Mazda Summer Institute. And I did that twice, but that was if I had to complete that course. Right. And then I could get this job because it was supposed to require the grant, had it requiring a master's degree and of course, didn't now. Oh, that's interesting. I was talking to somebody else. Who? The curator of jewelry who's been on this podcast, the Museum of Fine Arts. Boston. Mm hmm. And Decorative Arts, I think, is the other full title of her position. But that's the first time I heard that term was talking with her. She also had to finish a Ph.D. or something to be able to have her job. Right. Well, this was a month long course. Well, that's good. I'm kind. I find that really silly, that somebody can be fully skilled and have the job offered to them, but they just have to have this. You know, I wasn't fully skilled. Oh, you weren't really didn't know that much. Oh, okay. So you didn't think that month long course. Oh, I needed it badly. And it's funny because it focused a lot on furniture. Oh, how it was made in the South and all that kind of stuff. So when I got the job as furniture study director, I knew a lot about furniture. That's that. So listeners, I really wanted to speak with Andrew because he's held so many roles within craft centric organizations in our community. And something that I'm thinking a lot about right now is as I'm transitioning to hopefully a full time career on my own is experience and how that leads to other jobs down the line. I had a great mentor in Gail Andrews and I went to her and I said, Gail, is it okay that I don't have a graduate degree? Can I find a career and make myself have money with a four year degree? And she said, You're on the cusp, you're on the cusp. And however you might be able to do it, you need to get published, choose as a part of the world, art world that's not overly research and get published. So I'd probably been. Up to 60 times since that day. Mm hmm. Starting with my and speaking engagements about Southern Decorative Arts initially. Yeah. They also do that. You have to do that in order to. You have to research and present. Right. So it gives you those skills of the writing in terms of. Look. Exactly. Did you. I personally love speaking in public. Do you enjoy it? I do enjoy it. And I because of my memory, I used to be able to just speak freely, just go. Right. No problem. I can't do that anymore. And then I had to say no to a major speaking possibility because of that. Can we speak to that to give listeners insight because we haven't mentioned it and I think it would help. So. Well, Andrew, you tell them. Well, I took a job in for New York City. I just had moved into my house. And so I didn't want to sell it. I didn't want to rent it. And I had a friend stay in it and take care of it. Mm hmm. And I my thought was, if people can have a house in the Hudson, an apartment in the city, I can have a house in Ashville and an apartment in the city. Right. And I didn't want an apartment in the city, so that helped. I just wanted an apartment in Long Island City. Right. Because I didn't want to look at a wall. Oh, yeah, of course. But what I more so meant to. I want to jump back to that. But being that you have survived cancer, is what affects your memory the most. Yes. And my my stability and. Being able to walk long distances, which I can't do. Okay. And so that is why the public speaking engagements are much more complicated for you now. They are. And I my last big one was at the North Carolina Potter Center Potter's conference, and there were about 95 people there. I had known Barry Lopez, who's one of my writers at Penlan, and we became very close and he had told Amazing Story Penguin. And it had to do with clay and horses and American Indians. And a native story between the University of Texas Tech, where he was on faculty and a bunch of Texas Calvary killed all their horses in a box canyon brutally. And so because of the clay component of that story, my whole goal in that story was to try to get people to stop talking badly about other people's work. And in Seagrove, that's a problem because there is certainly less desirable work and more desirable for. Right. But they don't need to go at each other about that. I like how you said desirable work rather than good or bad, because it's not good or bad. It's all subjective. It is all subjective. And I said, you know, my story was and I'll try to be very brief, a mother and her three children come in from the country and they go into your studio and they she buys a mug and it's really expensive for her. Yeah. Yeah. And she dies, and one of those children gets that mug. Mm hmm. And you get this trickle down of importance. Yeah. And I said, you don't know if that mug that cost $8 is going to be really, really meaningful to that family versus an $80 mug that might be broken. Right. And I know that I drew the sentiment instilled in it. Exactly. I said, you can't stop prejudging other people's work. And that's what that speaking engagement was about. Yeah. To the to the Potters converts. Now, so now that we've established that. You are and also listeners, your cancer free. You've been cancer free for how long? Since 2013. What did you tell me last night in terms of how many chemo treatments you've had? Oh, I had close to 806 drug infusions. Wow. What kind of cancer was it? It was a lymphoma that was viral. Okay. Yeah, and it's relatively rare. It's very aggressive. Mm hmm. And so you had to just treat it and treat it and treat it. How old were you when you got diagnosed? 46 or 45. How old are you now? Turning 60. Sure. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Well, hello to 60. You're doing great for 60? I think so. Yeah, you're doing fantastic. Do you think that in the future you would want to get back to public speaking, or are you like, nah, I'm good, I'm good? Yeah. Do you do a lot of writing still? I do some writing. And then I'm. I'm hoping to increase. Mm hmm. Some say you're writing or travelogs. And my parents when they were in their nineties. Oh. And family stuff. And just the medical world. Right. Because you. Unless you have an advocate or you're able to create to be your own advocate. Right. You're going to get screwed. I've heard a lot about that. It's bad. Yeah. I mean, my mother I grew up with my mother who had multiple sclerosis. So the first many years of my life revolved around my mother's illness and that. And she was put in mental wards a few times because different doctors would describe all these medications and she would go crazy. Yeah, there was one time I went home, I was probably in fifth grade, and she literally thought I was trying to kill her and was screaming at me. And, you know, you're so young. But I still knew I was like, Something's wrong with her medication. I don't know how at that age I could. But yeah. And then you had to, like, put her in a mental ward. So you need your advocates. I wish. I hope you do. And when I was in New York City at Beth Israel Hospital, which is where I was after I was organized for seven months. Yeah. I had friends from Ashville who came up every week. Oh, those are amazing friends. Yes, they were. They are. Yeah. And they would feed me. And I did not care for the kosher food at Beth Israel. So their sneaking in. They were seeing real food. Bacon? No, not bacon, but ham. Okay. Does she know? Oh, there you go. So, yeah. So you graduate with a job in your field, which that in of itself is great. First step, you're off to a great start. How well did that job pay? Did you feel. Oh, it didn't pay anything you paid. I'll tell you exactly how much it paid. $13,000 a year. Oh, God. However. Yeah. I had to drive a lot for that job all over the state. And I had a Honda CRV that got 55 miles to the gallon. Yeah. And so I got mileage. Oh. Oh, my gosh. I actually. Mileage is magical. I is magical. I'm driving from Florida to Philly, but I did this retreat or strategic planning thing at Aroma, and they gave me mileage. Yeah. So I'm actually making money to drive home. Yeah. Love mileage. Yeah. And you know, it. It's gone up a lot since I was driving. Yeah, it's 56 a mile right now. It was $0.30 a mile when I was driving for the museum. Yeah. But, yeah, it made everything possible. Okay, because you could pocket a lot. Yeah, I wouldn't say a lot, but a decent amount. Yeah, they get by. What? So let's just start with my. I just want you to do, like, a timeline, a brief timeline of all the jobs you've had. Okay, I can do that. Yeah, you can. OC is also funding. I mean, I do research on my guests and word of mouth about you. Obviously, people are like, you have to meet this person, but I could not find you don't have a website. Yeah. And so it was actually kind of hard to figure you out. A social media fan, right? I like Twitter, but I don't like Facebook. I get on Facebook and I'm not on Twitter and I but nothing about me is on Twitter. So it really wouldn't matter when it matters. Yeah, because usually when you are googling somebody, you can at least find their Twitter and like slew that. But like, yeah, so please enlighten me. What happened in 1985? I graduated from UAB with honors from the art history department, went right to work at the museum. The job was waiting on me once I went to the Summer Institute, which was August of that of 1985. Okay, so when I got back from that in September, I also got married in August of that year, which was another issue. Mm hmm. She made a lot more money than I did, but. She was a registered nurse. Oh, okay. So that helped tremendously. And then in 1988, there was a quilt competition in the southern Holland Craft Guild here in Nashville. Okay. Did a bicentennial quilt come a constitution constitutional bicentennial quilt competition. And somebody called me and said, you know, do you know anybody that would do a quilt for this competition? Because Alabama. We're in the guild's territory. Mm hmm. We weren't represented. And I said, yes, I know two people I can call right now, and they'll do it. So I called my two quilters that I knew the best. And they did. And one of them won the whole thing. Oh, wow. That's amazing that they can roll. Yes, she was amazing. Shout out to Betty. So. When I did that, the director of the Guild came to Birmingham to meet with me and see what I was doing and figure out what the issue was. And and I ended up taking the job that he offered and didn't come in and double my salary and gave me benefits. That's amazing. Did you stay in Alabama? No. I came directly here in 88. I have actually when I was a resident artist at Aramark, we would set up a booth at the Southern Highlands Craft Fair show. Is that fair? To call it fair. So it's still going on and still very active. It is. But I think in general, that's not what it was. I don't think any craft fair is what it was. Oh, no, it didn't feel sad. I'm not going to say it felt sad, but it didn't feel energetic. No, it's there. There needs desperately to be a different way of looking at the future for people who sell their work. Agreed. But let's not go on that tangent yet. So what position? What was your title at Birmingham Museum? No, at the Southern Highlands. Oh, I came as a curator of education. Okay. And that included all the curatorial work as well. Oh, wow. So it was a heavy load? Yeah, it was a lot. Yeah. Did you feel like you thrived at that? Yes, I did. We had a permanent collection that had never been cataloged. Oh, wow. And I had registrar from Birmingham come up and train these volunteers that agreed to five years. They would stay with that project. Project. Right. And when I left that organization in 1993, they were all still working. Oh, cool. So how long did you hold that role until? From 88 to 93. And then I was hired by John Crown to go to Blue Spiral and be his assistant at Blue Spiral, which is a huge art gallery in downtown. Right, guys, I've been there. If you follow me on social media you've seen, I'll probably be there today at some point. That's amazing. And what was your title there? Assistant director. Oh, his assistant. So that's a pretty big step. And it was an you. It came with a healthy increase in salary to 30 grand. That's it. We were in the early nineties, but still, that doesn't seem like that much. It was 90. Yeah, but Asheville was a very different place then. Was it really affordable? It was more affordable then and now, that's for sure. Well, yeah, but it wasn't that much money. No. Okay. So how long were you able to, like, sustain yourself in that role? Well, I was there from 93 to 97. Okay. And then in 97, I went back to the Southern Highland Craft. Crawford. They had a new director. Mm hmm. And she thought she wanted me there for help. And I could have given her enormous amounts of help. But she quickly became jealous of all my contacts there and made it impossible for me to stay there. And so I started just putting feelers out and I actually applied for the directorship of the furniture society. It's the only job I've ever applied for. Aha. Okay. So question when you apply for something like that, I feel like because I'm still in the position of like looking and applying for jobs and etc., shout out if you're hiring. I get so intimidated by the list of things that are required of a director. How did you feel prepared to apply for that job? Did you feel like you actually were a little un qualified but just went for it anyways? Or did you feel? Or I felt like for what they wanted. I was qualified and then I hired a coach for the interview who I'd never interviewed before. And so, yeah, I wanted some questions of my own. When I think about directors of organizations like that, I feel like so much is related to development and fundraising is if you don't have development in fundraising, you don't have an organization. So how did you feel qualified to do that? Had you did that a lot at Blue Spiral? No, I had done it at the Guild, though. Oh, okay. And that was kind of learning as you go. Yeah, because I had to raise money for every exhibition I wanted to do anything with. And you kind of just figured it out as you went. Well, I had a great. The Wingate Foundation. Mm hmm. Changed everybody's life. And it. If you're listening and you're not familiar with the Wingate, I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but it's Wal-Mart money, essentially, right? That's not weird to say. And, you know, they've endowed many years in my life in some way. It's from Alma to Pendleton, etc. It's like we would not have had a career at all without Wingate. Right. And I see, I think same. Here in terms of the funding they give me the yeah. I mean the Center for Crafts exists because of a and has gotten huge money from the airmen. Airmen. I'm sure. Haystack. Haystack, all of it. Everything. Yeah. So you hired a coach for your interview. What was that like? I mean, it was really easy. I mean, I had somebody that I wanted to do it, and I just called him and I said, you know, can you coach me in this? So it wasn't like a somebody who actively their job was doing that, but it's someone you paid to kind of help you out. I didn't actually pay. I we bartered. I love the barter system. I barter a lot. Yeah, we all do. I mean, I have a piece of jewelry in my car for you because, like, people ask me, like, do you pay people to be on your podcast? And it's like, I can't because I don't even get paid, but I barter. Yeah. And so I bartered and and he he was a really great person who and he gave me the question that is the most magical question if you're being job interviewed, and that is to the people who are interviewing you, you say, if I get this job. Mm hmm. What is the organization going to look like in a year? What do you want it to look like in a year? What will I have done if I'm successful? That's a really good question. And it sort of caught them off guard. But a couple of them did have things as, yeah, I think it'll look like this. Okay. And that not only gives you that feedback, but it gives you an idea of where they think you need to go. Yeah, exactly. It's. It is a two way street. Yeah. Yeah. So you have this interview and you obviously got the job. You got the job. But there were two other people who wanted the job and they were both on the inside. And I had this seriously bad feeling. And I called the board president at the time and I said, Is there anything I should know? Mm hmm. That's going to sneak up and smack me on the head. And he said, there is. Right. And it was that there's two individuals already. Yeah. And think about that all the time. As I'm trying to find jobs, I always assume that there's somebody who's been working that wants to work up. Yeah. And in this case, you know, they were very connected and they worked very hard for the society. And I just. I know one of them was a writer, and he was in the magazine World of woodworking and. Mm hmm. And I had to fire him. He was doing bad things to me behind my back. He didn't like me. Oh, right. The other person moved away, and I never heard from her again. Yeah. And you got the job? I did. I did well. We had 800 members when I started that job and we had almost 2000 when I left. You know, it's funny because as I mentioned before, finding information on you was hard, but the one thing I did find was woodshop news.com and an article from 20 something about you. And that's the most insight I got to your past history. And now I understand that. Why? So the Furniture Society was an odd organization and it fit in with a snag. It fit in with in CEQA. It does. You know all the media specific organizations would in a fit in more with snag I think than any other because we'd had mixed media work. Right. Right. You know, we had concrete furniture. We had wood furniture, we had metal furniture. We had, you know, there's a lot of different things the the tie and was art, the use, the furniture form as the method of what they were doing. So it could be a broad scope as somebody who is literally just making functional furniture to sculptural. Exactly. Who's the director now? Monica Hampton Oh, okay. Tom Loescher came on the podcast and somebody from the Furniture Society was like, Hey, oh, by the way, I got to follow up with them. Yeah, Tom has a was great. He's so great. He came on to talk about being on a board because I really want to be on the board. Which reminds me, you've been on so many boards. Have been on a lot of boards. Okay, let's put a pin on your end. You're the director of the furniture site. But can we do a side? Are you still on a lot of boards? No. No, you're not. When I when I was still taking chemotherapy, I said yes to a friend of mine in L.A. named Kathy to Shaul, who is director of the United States Artist Organization. Oh, okay. And she wanted me to be on the board for craft for the craft aspect. And we needed she needed somebody from not the northeast or the far west or the southwest from the southeast. That is something I wouldn't say no to, even if I was in chemo either. So I was on that board for ten years. Nice. And I moved back and, you know, I got contacted by the son of Kraft, by the of and a lot of places. Do you want to be on the board? Warren Wilson and I just said, no, I don't. I'm not I'm not good. You you don't want me on your board is the ultimate issue. Oh, really? And why is that? I speak the truth, and the boards don't typically work well with that. Hmm. I like hearing that insight. I mean, I. I so badly want to be on a board because I want to gain the skills there that I could put towards being in a director type position. Yes. And with an organization like United States Artists where we re raising million dollars, millions of dollars a year. Yeah. You know, I learned all the fundraising skills that I could imagine. I wish, like, through osmosis or something, I could just extract that from you and take it. It's funny. Yeah, it's. We'll tell you the most important thing about fundraising if you don't believe in what you're raising money for. Don't ever try. Yeah. Just stop. You would think that would be an easy thing to recognize, but I'm sure when you're put to the task that you have, there are so many development directors that don't care about who they're raising money for. They're just got a job. Right. That only makes sense. I think that's why I'm a little in this weird place, too, because I want a job. I'll work for somebody else. But it has to be somebody I truly believe in. Right. And I know that sounds very privileged. Maybe, but it's not. I mean, I don't want to collect art by somebody I don't like. Yeah, and I don't want to. I won't even drink out of somebody if I like my feelings towards an artist change. And I own one of their cups, and it's in a negative way. I have to get rid of the cup. I can't even drink out of their cup. Yeah, the feeling. So, did you love your role at the Furniture Society? I did. I made so many friends and they were so good to me. And and it was hard to say yes to leaving. Right. May I ask about how much of a pay increase it was? Was that the moment where you're like, Oh, I can actually save money now? No, it wasn't. I was making 60 grand a year and I built this house or had this house done during that time too. So. Right. Although most of the money from that came from the sale of my condo downtown. Oh, and had you bought the condo at a time when was, like, really affordable and then everything skyrocketed? Yeah, the condo cost $87,000. That's amazing. Yeah. So Asheville property. Yeah. Is the reason I'm in this house. Yeah. And you guys, I mean, I'm taking pictures and etc., but it's really beautiful. You've really created like a very lovely space. It's all these windows and of course, mid-century modern, which I have an affinity for. And I like your tastes. Like the wall behind you is like a teal, like almost like a eggshell blue. And that is to honor the woman, Jean Bennett, who built the house. Oh, really? Was that her 56? She was her favorite color. Really? And she died in my office. And I. I respect that. And I didn't want to ever have a house she didn't feel welcome to come back to. Oh, my gosh. I love that so much. Okay. All right. Do you ever feel her presence around here? Not really. Yeah. I think that she maybe didn't feel like she needed to be here. Yeah, she handed it off in good hands. So why would you leave the furniture society? Because that was an opportunity to work on a much bigger level at the American Growth Council. And I was hired to be the deputy director. And the woman who is director was Carmen Branigan. Mm hmm. And she hired me, and I thought, you know, I never wanted to move to New York. That's not my place. Right. Not my style. It's just, you know, I don't I don't farm boy from Alabama doesn't want to be in the middle of Manhattan. I am shocked. Know. But I could be right and I could function and do stuff right pretty well. I flew a lot. Yeah. And and I was trying to reconstitute an organization. Did they? So when you said about furniture society, you said that's the only job you've ever applied for. So they kind of headhunted you is that she did. Oh, look at you. She called me. She said, I want you to be my. As assistant director or a U.S. assistant director. Deputy director and one of my jeweler friends, Deb Caris. Oh, yeah, I know who that is. Yeah. Oh, made me a star. A sheriff's or with deputy director on the Frye. That's kind of nice. Was sweet. So why did you take the job? Was it that it was a lot more money? Because it was a lot more money. Right. But that's New York City money. Did it feel like you were still comfortable in New York City or. I had this house I was paying for in New York apartment. That's a lot. Who was a lot? But it was manageable. How can I ask how much you got offered there? 175,000. Oh, my God. A year? Mm hmm. What? That's amazing. That's less than she was making. Hearings and. It was horrible because she was running a $2 million annual deficit. Oh, okay. That's not good. No, and that's what I inherited. So you had to come in and you had to do some serious fixing? I tried as more fixing than I could do. Right. That's a lot. But, okay, so you get there and you first focus on working on the budget. I did. Sorry. No, it's okay. Microphones get in the way. I said to my finance person and I said, I want to see a copy of the budget. I got 75 pages right and I sent it back and I said, Michael, I want a two page budget. Money in money up. Right. Basically the profit and loss. Yeah. I don't need all this. People buying paper clips and shit. And he said, you know, that's going to make the finance community really upset. I said, Well, if they are, they can call me. Why would that make? You have to have a deputy director know the profit and loss. It made them upset because he was under their control. It was a very unhealthy organization, right? He answered to the board. I had my fundraising. People answered to the board committee, not, you know, it was screwed up. Right. So what other what would you say within that role where your biggest accomplishments in terms of getting towards like financial stability. We never got to financial stability. Well, I said towards towards. Yes. Well, you know, I cut everybody's salary about 15%, including loan and announced it. And I'm cutting my salary as well as yours for 15% because we don't have the money to pay the salaries that Korman set up. Right. And so you're already unpopular. Actually, I was only unpopular with two people, and they both quit. Okay. And that was good. Yeah, it was good. And nobody else minded it. Okay. And I actually didn't realize. I mean, in terms of the time that I've been involved in the craft community, I've only ever known American Craft Council to be in Minneapolis. Right. It's only been in Minneapolis a minuscule amount of time of its history. It's always been in New York. Right. So were you somebody that pushed to move out of New York City? I was, but I got sick during the I got all these. Proposals. Right. And we had a board member that wanted to go to Minneapolis. And so I was in the hospital and he took it over and. Right. To get to Minneapolis. So maybe Minneapolis is not what you envisioned. It wasn't at all. Right. It is a little weird for me. Even from the Midwest, I'm like, why wouldn't you put it in a more like a space that was made more sense in terms of, like. More like on a coast or money. Yeah. Yeah. The mayor of Lexington, Kentucky, called me right before I went in the hospital, and he said, Andrew, I know you're facing a lot of stuff right now, a lot of pressure. I just want to tell you, we have free space. Oh. For offices and exhibition space. Right. Right. No taxes. Yeah. No rent. That was Phyllis George. Family. Oh, that was developing. The Browns were developing a piece of property and she wanted us to have this if we would come. Mhm. But I had several board members who really didn't want to come south. Yeah. Well, and now they're there. So you're in your position. Did you? So you started falling ill. Like, what set you off? That you were sick? I remember being in my office. We were doing an Etsy program. Mm hmm. In a library area. And I set up some chairs, and I was headed back to my office, and I sat down on my chair, and I just had this horrible back pain. On that was a Thursday, and I stayed home on Friday, and the back pain did not go away. By Sunday, I was dying. Right. And so I had one friend in New York. She's from Freak Wave Arena in North Carolina, which is east of Raleigh. Oh, okay. And she lived on the Upper East Side. Mm hmm. Way up. But she could get a cab. I couldn't get a cab in Long Island City. Oh, okay. And I called Betty Lin, and I said, I need to go to the hospital. Can you come get me in a cab and take me to Beth Israel, which is the only doctor I had up there was at Beth Israel. Mm hmm. And so I was in the hospital for two weeks. Mm hmm. Two was diagnosed, and then I had my first chemo treatment before I went home. So in term something I think a lot about having quit my job, I was so excited because I had benefits and it gave me this feeling of security that I never had before. The Craft Council had such great benefits. Okay. I mean, they completely took care of me. And so to this day, you've mentioned disability yesterday. So you get sick at the craft council. You're a year in your position. What does that mean in terms of like how do you get disability? Well, they had the previous director had demanded a policy on her. Okay. And they didn't cancel it. Oh, they inherited it. Okay. And Michael called me one day in the hospital and he said, you need to fill out your New York disability forms. And I said, I haven't worked here long enough to get disability. Well, you have to do it somewhere. You've got a much bigger policy behind. I knew nothing about it. Right. You're right. And the policy guaranteed the director 60% of her or his New York salary. Until then, retirement. Oh, my God. So you are there for a year. You get sick. You have no idea about this policy existing. You also have the best salary you've ever had in your life. And then you from now until retirement gets 60%. Hmm. Did they try to fight you on this? I hate to ask that question, but, you know, they were so supportive and really, I worked really hard while I was there. Right, right, right. Flew all over the country, meeting with people, trying to get them back active and. Yeah. And in positions of power. Like your own power? Yeah. And I remember walking around the perimeter of the offices. It was inside Soho's fabulous office. And above us was Marc Jacobs and all his. Oh, my God. So, you know, if his models were in town, we could fit ten people in the elevator. If it was just us, it's like five people. Yeah. Got it. Got it. And. I went to. Everybody was terrified. Yeah. Carmen, I was hired to be the person who dealt with the staff. Right. She didn't like it. She wasn't good at it. Yeah. They were terrified of her. Yeah. Interpersonal relationships is a very specific skill. It is a very specific skill. I happen to have that still skill, and I have the ability to tell somebody no, and you can't do that without totally ticking them off. That is a very special skill. It's been very handy. Yeah. So went around the and every time I would, you know, knock on the outside and the door was open and you could see them flinch. Right. And I called her meeting in the library and I said, you know, it's different. Carmen is not here. I'm here. And I will come into your office if I'm in the office. I'll be there sometime during the day that I'm here. Right. Because I want to know. And I said, Mike, I am not here to tell you what to do. Right. I am here to make sure that you have the tools and what you need to do your job. Nice. And if you don't have what you need to do your job, let me know. And I will do everything I can to get it. Yeah. So instead of knocking and them flinching, think you're coming in police or something, you're really just stepping in to say, Hey, I'm just here. What's up? Right. It's a different I get that a completely different changed everything. Yeah. That was a good meeting to have. It was. It was necessary. I was just talking to an organization that has a new leader, and they were talking about the first thing that new leader did was to mend the relationships within the staff and community. It was so important. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Huh. So what can you give me a timestamp for when you got sick? Like how long? 2007 to 28. Really? It was when I went to the hospital. It was the beginning of 2008. And I never came back. And you never came back. And here you are. But you seem like you've done so much. So what else have you done? I mean, you've battled cancer. That in and of itself is. Well, and I would say that. I came up with a lot of different stuff about cancer. And one of the things was, is I'm not I don't fight. I'm not a good fighter. I don't like to fight. Right. I'll walk away. You can do whatever you need to do. But just, you know, don't hit me. And yeah, I had yoga at Beth Israel in bed yoga. And one of the yogi was this beautiful man from the Upper East Side. And he said, I'm going to come back and see you today. I've got something I want to tell you. I was like, okay, I'm not going anywhere. And he comes in and he says, Do you really understand at all what happens when you come to this floor? Mm hmm. And usually when I'm there, I'm there for, you know, the the infusion was 96 hours. Right? So I was there for several days. Yeah. And he said, you have a. You have no sense of defeat. Hmm. He said, you're not fighting this cancer in that way. He said, You make everybody laugh. You're so positive. And he said, I don't know how you do that because I know you're really sick. I've talked to your doctors. Right. But I think that comedy and a different way of thinking about cancer is the key to your success with the cancer. And he said you should also read Temple Grandin. That Temple Grandin is this. Autistic woman when she went to school. Her aunt and uncle, who were had a farm with cows, built her a holder that squeezed in on her, which was the way that she could deal with the world. Built her whole. Like you've seen a cow shoot. Yeah, of course. Kind of like that. Yeah. She had it in her room. That was a good thing for her. Was a top. And not only good, but necessary. Interesting. And then she she got a Ph.D. in biology, University of Colorado. And there is a on the board of USAA was a guy named Todd Simon. Mm hmm. He and his family owned Omaha Steaks. Oh, I'm from Sioux City. Dang, that's a lot of money. I mean, I've had an Omaha steak. I know. What's up? He really was so great. And one day I was talking to him. We had gone to see Steve Oliver's sculpture garden in. North County, Northern California, and where it was raining. So nobody else but Todd and I came and Steve was there and I finally I just was thinking, I said, you know, are you familiar with the granddad method? And that's a method of slaughter. Mm hmm. And he said, we we don't have any meat in our company that is not slaughtered with egg, without the grinding method. And so it's like this sense of comfort is they separate the cows into one after another. It's not all grouped in. They don't get stressed. They just go through the chute slowly. And I've heard about that before. Of course, I'm from the west. And and so, you know, I started reading her. And one of the things that came with the Yogi's thoughts and Temple Grandin was that I really needed to think of this So I was writing a blog during this time, a caring bridge. And I said, Monday, I open the blog with news. Big news. Mm hmm. The cancer is my guest. Mm hmm. Most guessed we all want to get rid of. I want to get rid of this one. But I'm not fighting it. Right. A need to treat it well. Yeah, I need to give it enough room to get out of town. That's a good way to look at it, because you you do what your guests believe at that point. You have you can't say, okay, time to leave. Time to go. And I wanted to be good to the guests. Right. And it was. Did you create a good friendship with that yogi or that yogi? Just like I could call them right now. I love that. Yeah. Have a lot of friends that were a part of my healing. I'm going to have to remember to follow for you to get that book or the name so I can Google it. And I'll think that the description of the podcast name is Anybody else wants to read it. So so I retired in 2009. A Medically retired. You're medically retired? I came home to Asheville. I was there to spend the summer. It's sort of getting strong and going back because I really wanted to go back to New York. Mm hmm. And finish what I started. Right. But I had a relapse. And after spending four more months in hospital here, I was like, I don't want to go back. Yeah. Change your mind. And then I you know, in New York, I got the Soumya reservoir in my head, which because it was in my spinal column, the cancer was in my spine and in my central nervous system. Right. And if I had a nickel for every time somebody every time a doctor said, you're going to die. Mhm. You'd be, I'd be dead and then rich. Yeah. Very rich. And I just kept saying you don't know me. How can you tell me I'm going to die? Yeah. Also rude. It. They. Well, I had a reputation that they could be straight on with me. Fair? Because I was straight on with them. Yeah. Yeah. When I was back down here, my oncologist, who is just the best. I went to him and I said, Chris, you have to do a bone marrow biopsy. I want to know how my bone marrow is. And he was like, I don't want to do that. Right. I said, Well, you're not paying for it, so you got to do it. I want to know. Yeah. And he's like, Really? I said, Really? Hmm. So we did it. It was necrotic. Dead. So what does that mean? Well, normally that would mean I would be dead in two years. Okay. And he's. What do you want to do now? Because I don't know what to do. I have taken your case all over western North Carolina. Every cancer doctor, nobody has had a patient whose bone marrow has died. Right. He said, What do you want to do now? I said, I want platelets and blood every week for 52 weeks and then we'll test. Okay. How did you know that that would be a thing to do? I'm a good Democrat. Okay. Bill Clinton's mother, Virginia Clinton. Uh huh. That's what she did the last two years of her life when her bone marrow was not living. Oh, so you research and you found other I in research. I had seen her. Oh, okay. And so that worked. Miraculously, yes. When I tested it in a year, it was normal. Wow. There is no medical reason for that to have happened, right? Right. Except there is a precedent. And you did it and you said another precedent. She died in two years doing that. Hers never regenerated. Okay. Never mind. You are the president. So, you know, it just. It. I was in charge of my own care. Mm. You were your own advocate? Yes. Again, I wish I could have been a better advocate for my mother. I was just too young. You're too young. And. And the patient has to be strong. My mom wasn't that strong. Yeah, I know. Most people are failing violence in front of doctors. Yeah. And Beth Israel was a teaching hospital. Mm. And so it was a different cast of characters every time I went in there. Yeah. Yeah. And some of them were great. I called one on the carpet and changed his life. Yeah. And so I was at a bit of a reputation there. Yeah. Straight shooter like Jeff. Don't play with him. Mm hmm. If he says something, you probably want to do it. That's a great reputation to have in a hospital. Yeah, it is. And it was. And then I came here. I was at Mission Hospital with Dr. Che. And repeat, you know, hit replay. Yeah. Yeah. So it it it has changed my life. Yeah. Hugely. I mean, when I met you, I had heard of you. And that was part of the story that I had heard, that you were this incredible individual who had survived cancer, did really great work, was very impactful in the craft community. So that's why I wanted to speak with you. So what do you want to do now? Like you're retired. I mean, you collect you guys this house. I mean, I just keep snooping and you keep letting me snoop. He has a headboard that is custom made, that has jewelry on it, like a big dangly piece. I immediately was like, Oh, your headboard has jewelry. What is the future hold for you? I mean, you mentioned you love traveling. I do want to travel more, but it's hard. It's not easy. I have to have a wheelchair from the airline and deal with that, but I can deal with that. I did a test trip to Africa by myself. That's right. And I think that is so badass because we're talking about how I want to travel by myself more. And it's scary. It's like you have to get out of that. Right. And enjoy it and know that other people are there and you're going to be fine. Right. I think I just listen to. I mean, I'm from the Midwest. My family get scared. I say I'm going to Mexico. And they're like, oh, you're going to Mexico. So I'm not even telling them I'm going to Southeast Asia. I don't need them to have a panic attack. Yeah. So, yeah, I want to do that. The other thing that I spend a lot of my time doing is talking to cancer patients. Really? I get calls a lot. Will you talk to my friend who's who's been diagnosed with this or the other? And I'm like, of course. Right. Because living through that I feel like is a special gift. And I don't need to be private about it. Right. Right. And then give them some pointers and mostly just hope. Yeah. Hope is a powerful thing. It is. I remember like over a year ago, I use the term hopeless with my therapist about my work life balance and everything, and she's like, okay, that's the word that sets them off. They're like, Okay, yeah. Yeah. So that's really what I do. I'm limited as to what I can actually have as a goal to do. Yeah. And. My retirement, I'll get I'll be retired physically and financially. And when I'm 67. Right. And that's that'll be Social Security and whatever growth happens in the stock market between now and then. Right. I actually have been really focused on learning about investing and for saving for my retirement and everything. It's so important. It's so important and it's so hard. Yeah, but there's a lot of resources out there and I'm slowly but surely approaching it and feeling very confident that even at 37 I feel very far behind. But I'm just going to dove in and just do it and just do it. Yeah. So you can do. Mhm. Andrew it is so lovely to have had you on the podcast, this conversation. There was never a moment that I was like, Oh, what do I ask him? Now I feel like I could talk to you for like four more hours. Is there anything else that you feel like we should have touched on? I don't think so. I mean, I think that. Art and the making of art has been my professional life since I graduated from college. Yeah, and I would. I can't imagine. I'm never going to work feeling like I don't want to go here. That's good. Because I was going to ask. Yeah. That was on my list of questions for you. And then one last question for you that I have is, as somebody who aspires to have the type of roles that you had and etc. Any advice for me? The Reader's Digest version. I know that's a very local question. Don't give up. Okay. Keep reaching. Keep reaching. And my whole entire career is really a result of networking. You know what? That's wonderful to hear, because when I was down in Florida, things weren't panning out in certain ways that I thought. And so what I did was that I made meetings with every significant connection I have in Philadelphia. Yep. Because it. It's important they can help you. It's hard to ask for that. You don't need or you don't have to ask if you're just meeting them. Right. Just your impression on them will create a dialog around your needs. Right. Right. Right. That's see, he answered that question beautifully. Thank you. You're welcome. All right, everyone, this has been another episode of Perceived Value. The podcast broaching the subject of value with atas. Artists, curators, directors, individuals like Andrew. Thank you so much, Andrew. You're welcome. Perceived Value is a podcast recorded and produced by me, Sarah Rachael Brown. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram as at Perceived Value Extremist directly from our web site at perceived valued podcast dot com or listen on iTunes Stitcher Google Play. Just don't forget to rate and review us. Thanks for listening.