Unknown: Hi. My name is Sarah Rachael Brown. I'm a 30 something year old woman and I live in Philadelphia. I'm a contemporary jeweler and like many others, I am an artist trying to make a living. On this podcast, I'm going to broach the subject of value. I'll be talking to studio artists and performers, educators and administrators and anyone else attempting to combine their creative endeavors with how they get a paycheck. I have a lot to say. I mean, I have a lot to say all the time, but I especially have a lot to say in this introduction, so we're just going to get right to it. Munich Jewelry Week in Munich, Germany is February 28 through March 3rd, and I am going. I am exhibiting alongside other talented U.S. based artists. There will be three full exhibitions in the space we have secured, which is stunning. I'll be sharing more about this event as the time approaches, but for now I have linked the Instagram account we created to share all the details of the three exhibitions. The handle is three x USA underscore MJ W 2024. Yes, very creative. I know. Are you? Subscribe to the podcast. If not, it's fine. But go ahead and subscribe on Apple Podcasts because that is where it is most important. I don't know why I don't make the rules, but I do follow them and once subscribed. Leaving a rating in review is the best and 100% free way to show your support for this work I am doing with the podcast dormant in 2023. I could really use some fresh reviews, help your girl out and I just want to acknowledge my all time favorite review. It goes a little something like this. Love the podcast. Not sure. On her opinion about Doggos. Now I don't know if that's like verbatim, but it's pretty close. And I just want you to know whoever left this review A I love you, it's fantastic. And B my opinion on Doggos has evolved. I actually had a few dogs in my life that I like. I've cuddled dogs. I even had a moment where I thought I wanted to get a dog and then I remembered who I was and fleshed that out in my brain forever. Now if you have a few bucks to spare, you can become my patron on Patreon. Patreon is a subscription like platform, so you name the amount you want to give each month and your card on file is automatically charged in 2024. We are setting realistic expectations of our productivity. I'm not overcommitting and I just want to say that I don't have a lot of bandwidth for Patreon. It really is just the episodes I create and this is a way that you can send me financial support. I hope you'll do it for the next three months. February through April. I am donating 100% of my Patreon support to a fellow jeweler and medal Smith named Kristen Matsushita. You might know her through her work with society, North American Goldsmiths and or Haystack Mountain School of Crafts, just to name a few. She's done a lot. Her friends and family have created a Go Fund Me, which I have linked in the description of this podcast. And I'm just going to read from her fundraiser page because they put it best. Kristen's journey has taken a series of heart wrenching turns, leaving her in a situation that none of us had anticipated In addition to living with cancer for the past two plus years, Kristen suffered a heart attack and shortly after lost her full time job, which provided medical benefits. She has tried to rise to the challenge by taking on four different jobs and interviewing for dozens more. But despite her incredible resilience, the weight of accumulated medical debt, prescription costs, which cost more than $500 a month with her insurance and the impending loss of that medical insurance by the end of the month are now pressing concerns. I'm personally terrified of getting sick because the health care system in the U.S. is broken. I hope you can join me in supporting this member of the craft metals and jewelry communities. Again, all details are linked in the description of the podcast. Someone asked you, what are you most proud of? Or What has been your greatest accomplishment to date? Do you know what you would say? If I were to answer this question four or five years ago, I likely would have said my work with the podcast and all that has encompassed the traveling, the teaching, the community, etc. but that no longer is true. The pandemic created and continues to create a lot of barriers. In the beginning, we couldn't physically be with our loved ones and dating and trying to find a romantic connection literally felt dangerous for a time. But the pandemic also allowed for time and space for relationships to begin, grow and dare I say, Hill. My brother and I started talking a lot during the pandemic. Our relationship, or lack thereof at that time, was a result of choices and ensuing consequences that he and I had no agency in. We were raised primarily separate and in very different environments, so we found ourselves in adulthood, losing our parents at fairly early ages. Grieving and not really knowing each other. During a heated conversation with my brother, I recall saying, We don't even know each other well enough to fight. Families disagree. They fight. But they have the tools through experience to empathize and reconcile with each other. My brother and I did not have the tools or experience, but we were able to at least recognize this and express wanting a relationship. So if you ask me what I am most proud of in this moment, I will answer my relationship with my big brother. Something I wasn't sure I could have. Something I desperately wanted, and something I choose to prioritize more and more. We've got a lot of lost time to make up for, so today's interview is special. This past November, I met up with my brother in Seattle for the holiday and we both felt ready to make this interview happen. I did a lot of recording with my brother. We started with oral histories of our family, specifically my father's side, which I don't have a lot of knowledge of since I was raised with my mom's family. We compared stories our father had told us. He helped me gain a deeper understanding of my Osage lineage. I learned so much about my brother. This whole process has felt, dare I say, healing. Benton Brown is an artist who, given the choice, would spend every waking moment painting. Ben is a graphic designer with Buffalo Nickel Creative, based in Osage Territory in Pawhuska, Oklahoma, where he was raised and is primarily based today. Ben is skilled in many, many things, so I'm just going to ramble him off real quick. Design. Photography. Video. Audio Engineering. Music Composition. VOICEOVER Work. Illustration, painting, animation and storytelling. But his most valuable asset is his ability to adapt quickly. Ben continues to develop new skills daily and has been referred to by some clients as the glue that binds the Husker Buffalo Nickel office together. So please welcome today's guest, my big brother, Benton Brown. Some close to my microphone then. Sarah. I'm trying to see your little bubbles, though. You know these things. My bubble, your bubbles, the sound waves. Oh, okay. My sound waves that night. Is that the correct term for that? You know, call it what you want. They're like peaks and valleys of the sound. Waves. Peaks and valleys of the sound waves. That's very poetic. I love that. This is really fun to have you on my microphone. I feel like we've talked about this moment for so long. This is years in the making. Yeah, but you know, I am. I hate remote recording. I've said it so many times on the podcast. It just is something that I cannot stand. I feel like there's something about being in person with somebody and that really changing the dynamic of how intimate a conversation feels. Yeah. When you can make eye contact. Yeah. You can't fake intimacy. And then also, I think being in the same environment. Like when somebody records remotely, they can have their children run in the back or their dogs distracting them or etc.. Like, I know we're in this room without a dog because I don't like dogs. Yeah. Ben, question. Do you like dogs? Yes, I do like dogs. Really? Yeah. You have like them in your whole life? Absolutely. And did you ever I mean, you witnessed me getting bit by that dog. That never changed your opinion on dogs? No. Okay. Well, I was the fat kid in rollerblades getting bit by a dog, so I think it's a little different for me. You know, I always blamed it on the rollerblades. Really? I did. You did mention that at dinner the other night that you thought it was the roller blades. Yeah. That's so interesting to me. I just thought it was a vicious, tiny little white dog. No. Being around dogs my entire life, like I've had dogs chase me and try to bite me. But it's always when I'm on a bicycle or on a skateboard or something with wheels. Right. Yeah, that's the thing. Okay. Okay, I get that. It's also wild to be here in Seattle with you because I lived here almost seven years, and you never visited me. Not once. But it's really nice to come back here now that we're so much closer and to be able to just stay in the neighborhood I lived in and like point out places that were special to me. It feels really good to do that. Yeah, we're down on Capitol Hill in Seattle. Yeah. And the weird part is, is that you're probably going to move out here and I don't live here anymore, which is funny. Yeah, there's. There's a chance of it. Yes, there's a good chance. Yeah. Um, how the world just goes on. You never know what's going to happen. And now I'm all the way on the other coast. Way too. Way to go. All the way to the other side of the country. But just to be transparent, I have already visited you there. Yes, you did visit me in Philly. So everyone, as we record this, it's the day after Thanksgiving. And my brother and I two years ago to Thanksgivings ago, we he came to Philly to spend Thanksgiving with me which was really special. And before that, we hadn't spent a Thanksgiving together. I was trying to remember I don't think we had spent a Thanksgiving together since I was 12. No, we had spent one Christmas together. We spent one Christmas together. What year was that? Probably like teens. 2013 oh. 2000. You're right. 2013. Yeah. Yeah. So it's nice we're trying to create a new tradition or just establish a tradition where we see each other for Thanksgiving, which I don't really care about Thanksgiving. Ben, how do you feel about Thanksgiving? I don't. Yeah, exactly. Same here. But it is a national holiday where everybody gets to take off time, off work. And it's a good reason to get together and eat food and just connect with someone that you love, like your big brother or your little sister. Okay, so this is going to sound funny. Maybe not. I mean, all families are so different. I love my brother. We were raised mostly separate after the age of ten. 12. I was 13. Yeah, we moved to Iowa. You're ten? I spent a couple of years there, and then we split from there. So I think I was 14 or 15, so I would have been 11 or 12. And so having my brother on the podcast, I'm sure somebody would be like, well, you, you know, you know your brother. So this is an easy interview. But actually there's a lot I don't know about my brother. We had dinner last night with David Chat, who is going to be on the podcast this season, who's a very, very dear friend of mine like, you know, chosen family. And I really loved having dinner with him and his partner. Because they were asking you questions, Ben, that I didn't know the answers to and maybe I wouldn't have thought to ask you about. So it felt like a whole night of me getting to see a side of you that I didn't know. Right. Yeah. And you said this morning that you were surprised that you liked my friends so much. I mean, was I love. No, I completely understand what that comment is coming from. If you only know me mostly through the Internet or what you see, or you've only met my friends and feel like once, that's one tiny little drop of my community and chosen family. So I'm happy you like them so much. Yeah, it was really great. Yeah. And it's really great to get to know each other because we probably know less than 10% about of each other. Yeah, I know. That's why I'm really stoked for this podcast interview. I get to ask all the nosy questions about your professional life that I've always wanted to ask. Something that I think is really interesting about us is that genetics are freakin wild. We were raised, you know, mostly separate in our adult lives. We have not been close up until the last couple of years. There is times in our life, our adult lives, that we didn't speak at all and were on talking terms. Um. So even though all of that, we somehow have a lot of overlap in terms of the hobbies or passions or talents that we have. Yeah, it's a good argument for the nature, virtuous versus nurture, because in many ways, like, I do believe in nurture. But then speaking to you and having conversations and seeing our parallels makes me really believe a little bit more in the nature. Yeah, I remember Dad actually came to visit me in Seattle. He's the only family member that came. And we were. He brought his record collection because he said Ben didn't really want it. And I was like, What? Ben's an insane person. And there was like original Howlin Wolf. Oh, that fazes say it a different story. Anyways, Daddy gave me the record collection. I was never asked. Okay, Dad, Daddy gave you the record collection. And, you know, we're just sitting there. And it was my dad and my step mom, Melissa, and my then partner. And I was like, Oh, Dad, you're handy with your hands. Like, I have this lamp, I collect vintage my amps, can you help me fix it? And I remember our stepmom was like, How about that? RB She collects vintage lamps, and I had no idea that my dad also collected vintage lamps. I mean, he was kind of a hoarder, so like what? He did it, he collect. But I just thought that was really interesting. And then we also went out to get drinks and I ordered a Bloody Mary and my dad was like, okay, like that was Dad's drink at the time. It was all these weird things. Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting to see. Do you collect vintage lamps? No. No, I do not. Okay. They're a little traumatizing for me because our father did collect vintage lamps like you did. He also collected vintage chandeliers. Oh, and the house that he built for us or built for himself? Mm hmm. I had, like, seven foot ceilings. Right. Which is lower than normal. And he was, like, five foot five, five foot six. So putting up these vintage chandeliers all over the living room was not a problem for him. But I turned out to be six foot one. Right. So they were dangerous for me, right? Oh, sorry, Ben. For listeners. So also to give some context, Ben is three years older than me. I'm the little sister. Ben, can you share with listeners where you currently live full time and what you do? Okay, I live in a town called Pawhuska, Oklahoma, in the Osage Nation, and I work for a marketing agency called Buffalo Nickel Creative, and I've worked there since 2009. And you work for the marketing agency, but you're also partner in it, right? I did become a principal partner, yes. Okay. So what does that mean? Like you're technically part owner? No, I don't. I'm not real sure how that works out. Right. I do get to help with decision making. I get some sharing, you know, profit sharing. Yeah. So it just gives me more leeway to to have a say in things. Yeah. Okay, okay, okay. Okay. And what is your title like? What is it that you actually do? Oh, that's that's a good question because we don't have official titles. But when I get on Zoom meetings and people ask, I tell them I'm the senior graphic designer. The senior graphic designer. And just knowing you, you sounds like like right now I'm having trouble is scanner when somebody asks me what I do because right now I am a full time consultant or independent creative. It's hard to just put a label on it, right? Like, I can't just say, Oh, I'm a doctor or Oh, I'm a audio engineer. It's a wide variety of things and I feel like you're kind of the same way because every time I talk to you, it seems like you're doing something different. Yeah, I very, you know, that senior graphic designer, and that is a very broad umbrella that is a cop out under the things that I actually do. Well, okay. So then let's make this easy on you, Ben. Give me a laundry list of all the things that you currently can and do for the company. Okay, so I am the graphic designer. Okay? I'm also their animator. I'm also their audio technician. I do editing, audio editing and video audio and video editing. I do. Branding and marketing. Okay. I do. I told you. Laundry list. Keep going. Photography. I can do. Cinematography. I do. I've done stop motion there. Mm hmm. Oh, just so many. VOICEOVER work. VOICEOVER work, recording, podcast recording and editing. Yeah, like all those things. All those things. Jack of all trades. Yeah, sometimes. All simultaneously. Okay. And then separate from your work with Buffalo Nickel Creative, which by the way, what makes Buffalo Nickel so special? What would you say? Oh, that's a good question. I think what makes it special for me is that we are a very diverse group of people that come from Indian Country and work specifically with tribal communities. Mm hmm. To help empower them and to share their stories. And I feel like the work is is the important part with Buffalo Nickel is everyone that works there. I mean, it is very diverse, but is it is everyone that works there native in some capacity or. No. No. Not everybody. Okay. But predominantly like native. Yes, definitely. Native owned and run. And, you know, most of the people that come through there are native. But we do have a few non-natives. Okay. And I really haven't talked about it on the podcast or in my work much at all. But I am a member of the Osage Nation, as is my brother. So that's why he's alluding to all that. Yeah, we grew up in Perth, Oklahoma and Osage Nation. And so you work here. How long have you worked there? Since 2009. Okay. I started there after working. At the time, I was working at a convenience store. Oh, I love this story. I've actually heard this. Go on. Yes. Okay. So at the time, I was working at a convenience store. It was a it was a short term job for me. It was only meant to be a couple of months because before I worked in a hospital and the dietician dietary area. Mm hmm. And I figured that's what I wanted to do. Oh, wow. I never knew that about you. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, there's going to be a lot of those moments. Sorry. Yeah, now you do. No idea. But we got. I got to let go along with everybody else in the dietary area for reasons that were very complicated. And I started working at a come and go, and I was traveling and playing in a band called Avian. Mm hmm. And we found a T-shirt shop downtown that was Buffalo Nickel Creative. It consisted of Ryan Red Court and one other gentleman who were printing T-shirts. And we came in, you know, hey, we want t shirts. We want to design. How much is the design going to cost us? $400. Hell, no. Right. You know, and so I was like, what if I do a design, bring it back in, can use that. And he was like, Yeah, yeah. And I could tell by his voice, he's like, Now people do this all the time and it's such a hassle. And so he explained to me what he needed. And I came back in a couple of days later with a design and he was like, You did this? I was like, Yes. He's like, Yeah, this will work perfectly. Oh. So we started having our T-shirts printed from there. Right. And I'm working a come and go. And one day this gentleman named Todd Vetter comes in, and I'm in the middle of getting a promotion. My district manager is right there talking to me. Todd comes up to the counter and says, Hey, are you Ben Brown? I was like, Yes, sir, how can I help you? He goes, Ryan, Red Corner wants to offer you a job. I wasn't doing what he said. Printing T-shirts. I'd been thinking about this for a while. Like you wanted to work for them? I did. Yeah, but I just didn't know how to get it. Plus, I mean, let's get some context of past Oklahoma. Back in the day, it was basic. They took our way, our one stoplight. It was like an idea. Come and go. And a Wal-Mart. 3500 people. There's not much there. So the fact that like this t shirt company exists there anyways, I would be a model. Like, that's the one place I wouldn't want to work. Right. Yeah. So he offered me the job. I said, When do I start? I said, Tomorrow. I was like, Look at my manager. I was like, I'm doing this. Wow. So the next morning, I showed up for work, you know, and you and I have had a lot of conversations about our father who has passed away, R.I.P.. But he was a man who was a very good storyteller and told what we felt was often tall tales but post-impact in a way, we realize. A lot of the crazy stories he's told us over time were actually real. In his version of the story that he's told me. It was more dramatic where you were drawing while working out. Come and go like kind of slacking off, doing a doodle at the counter when some guy walks up to pay for something, sees your artwork, and then offers you a job on the spot. You know, that's not too far. It's not too far off because actually Ryan, the one who offered me the job, who sent Todd, was coming in and buying Gatorade and bananas every night, and I was drawing on the counters so he would see your artwork and. Yeah, yeah. And he was kind of like, You're not happy here. I'm like, No, that's incredible. So you get this job and guys. So my brother is wildly gifted. Of course he has his whole work that he does, but he also has a whole studio practice. He's a painter. I'll let you tell more of that. But we both got the creative gene. I personally. What age were we when we won that art competition? I don't know. We were under ten years old. We were both really young. But there was this art competition. Ben won his age bracket. I won my age bracket, and we both won a two week like art school camp thing in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And that was the death of my drawing career because we did this part of the camp was going out into the garden and Ben's laughing because he definitely remembers this. And we had to do like still life in the garden and the instructor wouldn't allow us to have a racer's. And I had a mental breakdown because she wouldn't let me race anything and start over. And then I literally just stopped drawing after that time. Yeah, it was. It was pretty good. Yeah. And I wonder where, how far I would have gone if I hadn't stopped. No telling. Yeah. Ben, you're so good at drawing. I love it. Okay, so you get this job? Yeah. I show up the next day, and you have your God given talent, which is drawing because you've been obsessed with it from paintings since. As long as I can remember. Mm hmm. How? Tell us about how you came to be this gas station dude sketching to being a partner in this. Marketing agency. Okay. Well, I think I need to go back to the first day. Yeah, tell me about the first day. Because when I walked in, nobody really showed me anything. There are two people in there, and they walked in and they were like, Yeah, you set up the screens like this? Yeah. Throw a T-shirt on, you throw it on you, break the squeegee across and throw it in the dryer. Okay. And that's it. Bam! 5 minutes worth of training. Easy. Start printing T-shirts. Well, my first batch, they were crooked because they didn't show me exactly how to put the T-shirt on, and they didn't show me how to line up the screens or anything like that. And they didn't tell me that the flash dryer was like 900 degrees. So, of course, I catch the building on fire twice the first day before lunch. Oh, my gosh. Mm hmm. So at lunch, my first day, I was like, Well, hey, you know what, guys? I screwed up the first order t shirts. I burnt part of your press down. I really appreciate this opportunity, and but I think I'm going to have to go right. And he said, no, no. Everybody catches the building on fire the first day. Oh, good to know. Good to know. So I continued working the first year as a printer. As a printer. Okay. Yeah. And did a lot of cleaning up and changing things. And I actually went to work for another print company to learn how to print, to come back to print for the print company that I wanted to work for. Where was that at? Bartlesville. No, actually, there was more than one T-shirt print company in Pawhuska. That is so wild to me. Yeah. Right. So. But they. They showed me what they were supposed to do. Right. And then I just brought that, and I implemented that with an buffalo nickel. Something I also want to acknowledge just a little. Did you graduate high school? Yes and no. Well, then that's not an answer. I have a G.E.D.. There you go. I got it. Two years before I should have graduated. I actually had enough credits to graduate as a sophomore when I moved to Oklahoma. And so there's issues there. And the educational system in Oklahoma is horrendous. Right. And the all the credits that I got were from Iowa. And I actually spent time in the detention area, which mean I went to school through the summer and things like that. So I was continually getting credits. Yeah. So by the time that I moved to Oklahoma and it was like looking at the sophomore and even the senior books and things like that, I was like, We did this in middle school. Oh, right. Okay, that makes sense. And you know what I did remember? Yes. Because at some point I was writing an essay and Mom got her GED, dropped out and got her get to you. Got your GED. Dad graduated from military high school. Dad graduated from Ponca Military School and I graduated traditionally from high school in the four years, but I was the first one within our military or like nuclear family that attempted to go to college. Did you ever attempt to go to college? Not as a student. Okay. My brother never attempted to go to college, so that answers the question I typically ask him. Perceived value is do you have any student loan debt which is no good for you? That a boy. Okay, so you come back, you have a skill set and what do you become? They're like main printer, like rock star. Yeah, I'm assuming. Okay. I love. Okay, I guess what that whole tangent was about was that another thing that I find so interesting in that similar between us is that you and I both have always found alternative methods for getting our skill sets in education. Like I apprenticed, I dropped out of college twice. I apprenticed. And now whenever I need to learn something, I call it the Leach method. I find somebody more talented or educated than me, and I latch on to them and I suck them dry until I know how to do what they do. Oh, yeah, that's a good method. Yeah. And I love that. Although we are so different, we have similar methods to how we've gotten our skill sets. Yeah, I like to find people that believe in me enough to pay me to learn. Right. Yeah, that's. That's that's. That's a good method, too. Yeah. I mean, my apprenticeship, I was compensated in ways. And there's a blacksmith here that hired me for my first, like, paid creative job. And I wasn't a blacksmith. She taught me all my, like, basic blacksmithing skills. So I get that. Okay, so you become rock star printer? Yup. And then one day I come in and Ryan says, I'm going to have to let you guys. So. Oh, yeah, we had a project manager that was kind of like not exactly processing orders or paying for invoices and mismanaging money. So the company was losing. Right, right, right, right. Right. Mm hmm. So the company sold the company sold to a couple of gentlemen in South Dakota, Rapid City, South Dakota. And they come and they pick up the stuff and then they ask me they actually have dinner with my dad and me. Wow. And they asked me, would you like to come to, like Pine Ridge in Rapid City and help us set this up and, like, teach us to print? And I thought about it and I said yes. So I didn't have a job. And they offered me quite a bit of money to come up there for an extended time to come do this. And it was a blast. And they needed to know how to design stuff. And I had not yet gotten to the computer side or the design side. I had done some illustrations. Right. I stopped by a Barnes Noble's on the way to the bus stop because I refused to fly at that time. I love that about you. So it was a 24 hour bus ride. So, so miserable. It was very it's through the Midwest. Y'all like, you know, Pawhuska, Oklahoma to Sioux City. Iowa is a straight shot up north. I've been there. Rapid City. You just keep on going north and you get more and more miserable. Right. I you know, but it was enjoyable for me, too. It's like miserable. I look back now is really, really kind of nice. Yeah, but I picked up two books on Illustrator and Photoshop. Oh, my gosh. And I read through both books through the bus stop or the bus ride. And by the time that I got there, I was able to open up their computer and do all their designs for them. Did you have a laptop on the bus? Like, come on. No. Okay. I feel like your intelligence level, the way that you can, like read something and comprehend it like that and then apply it immediately. I don't have that exact trait. I wish I did more. I wasn't doing the most complicated stuff right. But the basic stuff you could do. Yeah. How long were you in South Dakota? Oh, a while, but months? Yeah. Oh. Did you ever stop in Sioux City, Iowa, and say hi to Mom and me? I did come back through Sioux City. That must've been one of the trips that I remember you stopping and saying hi. Yeah. Okay. Okay, that's cool. Ben. Wow. So then when it ended, what did. What did you think you were going to do? I don't know. I just came back. You just came back? Yeah. I didn't own a computer myself. You didn't even own a computer yet? Yeah. So. At that time, like, I could run Illustrator, but I couldn't make an email. Right, right, right. Okay. Okay. Okay. What's the time stamp here? 2010. Oh. So I had moved to Seattle. I was already in Seattle, so I wouldn't have seen you stop in Iowa. Yeah. Yeah. So we make it back and Ryan goes, Do you want to learn design? I can hire you back. If you can learn design. I was like, well, crazy. Yeah, I did all this stuff on the bus and I started working in Illustrator and Photoshop and, you know, in design with him. Like, I started working with Adobe like right away. Right. And he gave you a computer to do that? Yeah, he gave me a computer to do that. And my initial jobs were doing, like pamphlets, fliers, t shirt designs. And then I started working for casinos. Oh, okay. Like the. Did the Osage other casino by then. Yeah, we had our the W trailer casino version. I remember that. Yeah. It's not like that anymore. Yeah, but we did not work for the Osage Nation. Oh, okay. We worked for other casinos. We worked for casinos here in the Pacific Northwest in Minnesota and in southern Oklahoma. Oh, okay. But we we were there agency of record. So, like, we were just getting slammed with stuff every day, like. Like all this collateral. And that was a great training ground because it was like, got to move fast, got to be efficient, got to figure out how to do this in a very efficient manner and just start really paying attention to like typos and just all these things that I did not know before. So and at this time, it's Ryan Red Corn. What was the name of the other guy? Just a brown thunder. Was that Ryan's like business partner? It is, yes. Okay. So they both still owned the company? Yes. Okay. Um, are you the only employee besides the two of them, or how big is the company at this point? At this time, we've hired other employees because it is just so much work coming in from casinos. Right. Right. Do you mind if I ask? I mean, in my apprenticeship and stuff like that. Like you definitely start out at a lower rate and you work yourself up. You're not somebody who graduated with a degree and enters the job market with X amount of salary. Like what was your beginning rates like? Okay, so I think minimum wage at that time was like 725. Oof! Okay. Pawhuska. Right. And I started at $8 an hour in 2009, which was all right. But the job that I had before, the job that I currently had paid me in like 850. So I took a 50 cent cut to go do something that I wanted to do. I've done that before. Yeah, it wasn't that bad. And actually within a month I got a dollar race and also the value of the information and skills you're learning, that is hard to quantify. Yeah, in some ways. So. Yeah. Okay. So you start around $8 an hour and you're saying a month into doing this design work and etc., you get bumped up to nine? Yeah. Okay. That's amazing. Right. That's a huge bump. And then almost every year since then, it's been a dollar to $2 bump. Are you on salary or hourly right now? I am on that. That's I'm a I'm salary. Yeah. But my fancy my salary equals out to like an hourly thing, too. Right. So I'll have an hourly rate that figures out my salary. Okay. Okay. Okay. Do you get benefits? I do, yeah. What are your benefits? Give you the bennies. What you got right now? Oh, I get two weeks vacation a year. I get insurance, which is, you know, insurance, dental and vision. You know, I, I get to help make decisions in the company, and I get the freedom to work remotely if I want to, which is a huge benefit. Yeah. I mean, you and I, I, I just jumped on that benefit. I mean, a big reason why I quit my day job was because I just wanted the freedom to work where I want, when I want, etc. and that's the most valuable thing in the world to me. So as we've been in Seattle this week, like the first two days were here, we both were working. Yes. Yeah. I think that's cool. And that's also really important for you because your partner travels a lot. So like you right now, you're basically working remotely full time. Right? Yes. Well, yes. I mean, I go back and forth. You go back and forth checking to see how things doing. Yeah. Okay. So moving along on the trajectory. So now we're like we are at $9 an hour. You are doing the graphic design. How many years? Talk to me more about like how you slowly but surely like got into doing all these other things that you do. Um, you know, clients would ask for things and my business partners would just say, yes, you know, yes, we'll figure it out. They didn't even say yes, we'll figure it out. They just said yes. Right? And then they look at us and go, we'll figure it out. Right. So a lot of time reading and a lot of time researching, a lot of time watching YouTube videos and just, you know, once you start connecting one thing in one program, you realize, hey, this is kind of the same, the next one and the next one. And they're all interconnected, right? So each one becomes steps. Each one becomes easier as you go along. Well, I feel like I looked over your shoulder before when you were editing like video or something. I'm like, Oh, that looks like Adobe Audition. It is? Yes. Right. Because I worked in music playing in a band for a long time and recording and editing things like that. The moment that I got into like looking at video, I was like, This is the same, right? This is the same. But I don't do much editing for video. I do the editing for video that is related to my animations. We have editors that work full time as just editors, right. Because that's a whole. Yeah. Yeah. So right now I do. I mean, sidetrack. I'm just thinking about like last Thanksgiving, like two years ago when you were like they told them we could animate something and I don't know how to animate. And you were like super stressed out and you're trying to teach yourself to animate over Thanksgiving. I was like, no, thank you. Yes. That was the yeah, that was that timeline was. Yeah. How are you doing with your animation now? Are you killing it? I you know, it is really complicated and it really helps if you have somebody to learn from. Right. And I don't have anybody to learn from. Yeah. Like you said, it's great to, like, have somebody to go and leech their stuff from them, right. And then be like, all right, I need to be around somebody better than me. That's going to push me to a higher limit. Hold me accountable, and. I'm going to do better. Right? But when you're already the best in that place, in your little circle, you're screwed. Because then you're like relegated to just using YouTube videos and Adobe tutorials and just trial and error and just hope things go well. And I'm still at that level, but I don't freak out anymore, right? You're the one that's responsible for learning it because then you can trickle down through the company, but it starts with you. Have they ever offered to, like, pay for training or anything like that? Because I know there's like weekend workshops or things you could take. Oh, yeah. Like immersive classes. The company is very supportive of me and like, finding anything, learning tutorials or classes or, you know, websites or anything that I want to do. Yeah, but it's about finding the time to like, right? These are active learning experiences, doing things for clients. So you've worked your way up. How long have you been a partner in the company? I think at about 2019 I got offered another job. Okay, this is where I come back in the timeline. I love my brother. We're very different people in some ways. So we just. Your parents die. Things get messy. You might get in a fight and not talk for a couple of years and then your sister might get dumped and have her heart broken and her brother might start calling her every day. And I just remember the timeline that would check out where like around that time we reconnected and you were checking in on me because you have a heart of gold. And I remember you asking my opinion about the job and I was like, Oh my gosh, my brother values my opinion. And that made my heart melt. Because I remember you telling me like what the D.C. job was offering you and what you had in Pawhuska and like us talking through that, I, I mean, I just was felt so grateful that you trusted me. Yeah, it was. It was a good job. It was it was for a client that I had already worked for, for years. And I really like the the with the woman that runs the company and things like that. Mm hmm. And was she native or was that kind of organization? Was it it's a nonprofit organization that helps native media and things like that. Okay. Okay. And I was kind of freaking out. You know, they offered me a really good position and things like that. But, um, and I was kind of feeling really burn out where I was. Yeah, not really appreciated to the point where I felt like I had put in the effort. Mm hmm. And didn't know if I should take the job or not. Yeah. And imposter syndrome kicked in right away. That's a trait that we both got things. Genetics. Yeah. Thanks, Jeanette. We really both love imposter syndrome. We found out. So it's like, you know, this job probably belongs to somebody that went to school and has, you know, years of experience with classes and things like that. And, you know, they eventually told me, like, your real life experience is more important than, like, you know, a couple of classes and degree, a degree that you would have paid for and probably never had the experience or working with the clientele that you have. Yeah. So I took the job. Oh, you did? I didn't remember that. Yes, I took the job. I told them I was going to take the job and this is where I screwed up. I really feel like I screwed up. What would you do? Well, they offered me partnership, and I decided to call them back and not take the job. Now, why do you say that you screwed up? Because company. Well, I don't feel like you should ever, like, accept something and then have to call back and tell them I'm sorry. I'm going to have to decline. Oh, yeah. That's a little messy. How long did you wait to give them your initial answer? Did you give yourself the space to really think it through? Yeah, about a month. I mean, they were really rushing me, though. At the same time, they're like, you know, we need you now. We need you now. We need you now. Did you use that as a bargaining chip with Buffalo, Nicole? Um, actually, I just told Buffalo, and I can't leave it. Yeah, I think I do remember this because I was like, you can, you know, leverage this to get a better position or whatever. I just think you're just so you're so straight forward. Yeah, but in from my limited experience of knowing your personality that I could see how you'd be like, Yeah, I'll take this job, this will be great. And like, not even tell your current company to kind of get ahead. Yeah. No, I mean, I would give them an opportunity to, like, look for people. Like, I give them like. I'm going to be leaving on this date. Yeah, but you didn't go to them and say, I have a job offer. What can you do for me? No. Which most people would bend. You know, I'm one of those people like, hey, if you don't appreciate me enough to offer me incentives to stay in the first place, I don't want to have to barter with you and argue with you about it. Right. Like I'm an asset. If you don't feel like I'm an asset and you don't want to, like, give me the respect of being an asset and things like that, I'll go someplace else where somebody does feel like I'm an asset. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the mentality I'm trying to hold on to while date right now. So, I mean, you know, and immediately they were like, please don't leave. Yeah. Like, we'll do this and we'll make you a partner and things like that. And, you know, we'll we'll match whatever. But. Right. We need you here. Oh, did you secretly want to stay? You know, it was a it was a big relief, you know, because, like, yeah, I was scared to go to some other company I've been with, but I learned all these trades and skills and things with Buffalo Nikko and there they were familiar to me and being familiar with something is always keeps you comfortable, you know. Well, it's also in the heart of your community and they're also connected to your culture. So there's just it's not simply just like a random business. Right. It also allowed me to stay, keep that sense of loyalty that I felt to them anyway. Right. I you know, I struggle with that, too. I am such a loyal being that it's I think I'm loyal to a fault and it's something I'm working on. I need to be a little bit. What's the opposite of loyal? I need a little I need a little bit more of that cutthroat. Oh, I need to be like. No. I need to be more cutthroat. Okay. Deal or. Yeah. I can't think of the word cause I'm, like, trying to think of it anyways. Yeah, I'm flaky. No, no, not flaky. No, sir. You do not want to be purposely flaky. Okay, so you get this deal and. And with partnership, I mean, I've never I don't really understand fully what that would mean, but it's like profit sharing. Yeah. There's some there's some extra, like an end of year bonus based on the profits of the company bonuses. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's nice. We love a bonus. What is your. So may I ask what your salary was when they kept you? Like what? What did they come with? Or, like a range? You know, I don't remember what I was making at the time. Okay. Just to be honest, I can tell you that in 2000, 16, 17, I was making a an amount that wasn't. Substantially higher, 40,000 less. Oh 3535 to 40 probably. Yikes. And they hired some other people that had no experience at anything to start learning things. And they started them out at the same price that I was getting paid for after being there for six, seven years. But do you think in their mind, I see that sometimes, where in my experience I've been at a company, I'm like such a pivotal part of it. And then I see like a job posting for a position at the company, and I'm like, What the hell? That's like so close to what I'm making. But, but I, I always wonder, like, through the, the rationale for whoever is, like, setting these prices or salaries or etc., they'd be like, well, the value of what I've already given them. And over this time they've gotten all these raises. And so it's kind of desensitizes them to the fact that like, you're still really not getting paid that much or what your value is, maybe. And I've talked to a couple of people from different companies and things like that. Oh, yeah. Do you do research with other like. I have a lot of people in other companies like that that we have conversations, we have dinner or something. Well, compare and contrast. Yeah. And one of the best things I ever told to me by somebody that worked in a larger company was like, Hey, they taught you these skills, just like you just said. Right, right, right, right. And you owe them a little bit. Right. But after about two, three years, you don't know them anymore. I literally when you just said I was like, oh, but I think after two years, like in my mind, I was like, you, you do you pay in. But then after that, like, come on. Yeah. Yeah. Even in my own apprenticeship, after I left the apprenticeship and would come back and, like, work for my mentor on holidays, I remember she's like, I still had so much imposter syndrome. I would have never asked her for an hourly rate. And she's like, I need to pay you like cash. And I was like, Oh, my God. Like, I felt dirty taking money from her. I felt weird getting paid an hourly wage to make work. Um, but, yeah, that's important. 2 to 3 years. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're listening, everyone in a similar situation, like, put your time in, but then start to ask for more. Yeah. And I still take the time to continue to learn while I'm being paid. So it does keep me there. And like a loyalty's like I'm continuing to learn things but I don't, I don't consider like, oh, just because, you know, if I stop learning right now, I'm not going to put in another three years. Well, yeah, no. So since 2019, when you had this offer from this other company and you chose Buffalo Nickel and they give you this offer, you become partner cetera. How have things been lately? I enjoy the company. I enjoy the things we do. You know, I really enjoy the people that I work with, the people that I work with. It's like the key to remaining there, right? I have worked with some people over the last couple of years where I'm just like, I am so done with this. Right. And I'm not talking about clientele. Most of my clientele has been wonderful. Wonderful. Some of them have been like dream clients that I'm just like, I really appreciate you for everything, and I can't wait to work with you again. Yeah. But some of the some of the coworkers, sometimes I'm just like, oh, how did we end up hiring you? Well, because Pawhuska is such a small little community. I mean, Tulsa is like, what, 60 miles away? Yeah. Where do you guys hire people? Is a lot of people remote only? Yeah, a lot of people are remote. Oh, okay. Yeah, because that makes sense. Like how many naturally gifted creative artists are living in Oklahoma? No, you would. You would. You would take your company. Yeah. Getting on that. Right, right, right. In the workforce in general, I'm sure it's like hiring in Pascoe's hard. Yeah, across the board. So you really love the people? I love the people. Talk to me about this. Okay. So, I mean, you know, I'm only a year and a half into being a consultant. So in through my lens of experience, I have clients and I am their consultant. But you use words like contractor and subcontractor. So break that down for me in terms of how this is, for example, this is what I think it is. You have buffalo nickel creative. Mm hmm. Ryan and Todd, I'm assuming they're the ones that get approached with potential projects from clients. Ryan and Joe. Joe. Sorry, Joe. I'll meet you in person someday and I'll remember your name. And they are the ones that kind of determine what contracts you want to take on with clients. Oh, yeah. And almost every everybody that send something to us will have a discovery meeting with them. Oh, to see, like, is this a good fit? Do we want to work with them, etc.? Yeah. Like what? How what is your project? What is the timeline of your project? Does that fit with the other timelines of the other projects that we have? Because sometimes just time dictates, can we do it or not? Right. And then finances come into it. Like, how much? What is your budget and does your budget fit the amount of work that you need and the amount of time that you needed in and you know, and actually the value of your work because your rates might be different from somebody else. Exactly. So their budget could get them more at a smaller, lesser valued place. I don't know how to say that. Right. Yeah. And sometimes they don't need what we are offering. Okay. Okay. So but what you're saying is that you have the owners that kind of give the discovery and then everybody can have a say to. Yes, we think we should. This project should happen or not. Yeah. So, I mean, normally after the discovery, we'll write up estimates and things like that, send those to the clients and let them know like, hey, this is the this is realistically the prices. And then we'll discuss and like, is this a good fit? Do we have the personnel to do this at the moment? And if we don't have the personnel, can we hire subcontractors that would work underneath us and report back to us and help with this project? That's it. Okay, so you have your buffalo nickel creative full time team. Mm hmm. And if there's a project that you feel is really valuable or could bring in a good amount of money or is just like an organization or tribe that you really want to work with, but you don't have the capacity of labor. You would hire a subcontractor. Right. And most of the subcontracting comes in to the video side. Right. And it's not like we're handing sensitive cultural, culturally sensitive designs over to somebody that has no idea what they're doing. A lot of the subcontracting comes to like videographers and things like that will subcontract videographers and they will come and work with us on site. Right. So we have camera operators and things like that. So they're still underneath the team and the team's there. So it's just we need more people. Right. Like you don't keep a key grip on your full time staff, but you might need that for certain projects. Exactly. Did you. Were you impressed by me knowing the words key grip? Yeah. I saw it on the credits of a movie once. Yeah, they're on the credits on every movie. But, yeah, we don't hire. You don't think you get. I don't even know what they do, but it's cool. Name. You did allude to something that I kind of wanted to touch on where you said culturally sensitive projects. Can you elaborate on what it is that that you that means through the lens of your company? Okay. Um, yeah. So we work with a lot of tribal nations, okay? And tribal nations all have their own different design styles and things like that. And a lot of those are very culturally sensitive. Mm hmm. There's things like family patterns that should never be used and, oh, like, depicted in things like you shouldn't use them. Oh, okay. Okay. Right. And you don't want generic, just whatever. So when we go in and we take projects for, say, like a certain tribe, we go in and we start studying their stuff. Mm hmm. We talk to the people that we're working with within the tribe and what they're envisioning, and they're, you know, everything from the palettes and the imagery. And then we start researching the history of that. Okay. And the thought processes is like, put yourself in their headspace. Yeah, we want this to by the time that we're done to look like, it could have been created by a community member in their community. Mm hmm. So which can be kind of complicated. I mean, yeah, it does. Uncomplicated. Yeah. Is there an experience that you've had where you delivered something that you felt was really good? And then they wrote back and. And it turned out to be kind of a disaster, not to go to the negative, but kind of love the negative sometimes like a whole on disaster, like full force disaster, because we get, you know, like, hey, this is design, right? You can do 40 designs and then like submit all 40 of them. And the last design that you designed is the one that they're like. Yeah, we'll take that one. Right. So, I mean, rejection is part of it. These things aren't your babies. Like, put it out there, release it. If it's rejected, move it to the side. And redo and restart over. That's a good thing to think about. I, I think I hold on to work. I do a little too precious, which is probably why, uh, a lot of my audio work has just been under my own. You know, I'm a control freak, so I just do perceive value. And it's really intimidated to think about doing voiceover work or like other podcasts for other individuals, because I think I hold on to it too dearly and I take the criticism too personally. I need to get better at that. Oh, I was, you know, was starting off having no experience and things like that. Yeah. The first thing that the first time I did an illustration or design that I was just like, I am so damn proud of this. This is amazing. This is amazing. This is the pinnacle of my what rejected? What the hell? You know, I have no idea what to do. Right. But it's, you know, and then you learn to work small. And that's something that I learned over the years. What do you mean, work small? So I used to start with, like, these big, elaborate designs, right? Right. In the working full size. And then I got to where like Ryan had worked with me and he was like drawing these little boxes on a piece of paper that's the size of a stamp. And he's like, Draw your design in that little box. And so like I do 40 of them over like ten, 15 minutes and like you start to like develop the idea of like composition and like what works and you're doing it the size of a thumbnail so it's faster. You can get through more iterations work. Yeah. You know, you're like, Oh, this is never going to work. This is never going to work. This is a possibility. Mm hmm. So, yeah, that's interesting. What's your I mean, you work under this umbrella of so many different things that you do, but what is your favorite thing you do For example, for me, you know, when people are like, what do you do? I'm like, Oh, well, I'm social media manager, business consultant, blah, blah, blah. My favorite part is this being the interviewer conducting an interview. I hate editing, I hate uploading the podcast, checking the gate, new term my brother taught me. But what is the thing that you love? I love anything tactile. Mm. Okay. I'm gonna need you to be a little bit more specific. Well, I work on a computer, you know. Oh, right. So there's not much tactile on a computer. Yeah. So sometimes I feel like it's best to start off of the computer. Start on pieces of paper? Mm hmm. Start with a pen and paper. I loved making stop motion sets, things like that. Things that I could get my hands dirty and just, like, sweat while I'm doing it. And just, like, you know, I don't know, something tactile, something I can rub. My fingers are crossed and be like, Yeah, that's satisfying. Yeah. And you do. I mean, I feel like you balance that out for yourself because you guys were my brother. I, we stayed together last Thanksgiving, but I really haven't stayed with my brother much in our adult life. So just seen our habits and how we kind of hang out is really interesting to me. And Ben, you are a machine. Like any time we have some downtime where I might like look at my phone, you pull out your sketchbook. And the other day, like after breakfast, we had this downtime and you started doing a watercolor study. I was like, Who is this man? So that's a big part. I feel like you jump to that because you do have to be on the computer so much, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I love seeing that. So but so the tactile. Okay, I think I was more like, if you could, would you be a full time videographer? Would you be a full time podcaster? But I get your answer completely. I would be a full time painter. You would be a full time painter. His eyes just lit up. So that is funny. We're at dinner last night and David, my chosen family, is you guys. My chosen family and my actual family got to meet. I started crying. I'm a softie. But you ran into a convenience store and we're in the car, and David's like, Your brother's paintings are incredible. You never told me he paints like I'm a jerk. I'm sorry, but I had never shared that. But you are this really incredible painter. Do you sell your work? Like, what is your painting practice? How does that play into everything else that you do? Um, you know, I've over the years I've done. I've started painting. I've stopped painting, I started painting, I stopped painting. And we lost our parents. Yeah. And I. I ended up going through a divorce, and I felt like I lost everything. And I might have become homeless for a little bit. I might have been living on a cot in the back of. Business. Yeah. I mean, while owning a house, right. So, which is awkward to be homeless while owning a house. He demoed his house. You know, grief does crazy things. It might push you to rip out all the walls and everything else in the house that you own. Yes. Which luckily I sold the house recently, so it's cool. But, you know, I'm on and off with this painting thing. And then right before the pandemic started post-divorce, I was like, What is it that I'm supposed to be doing with my life? What is it that was expected of me in my life from the people that I loved and cared about? I was like, What would they want for me? And I opened this book on like how to draw on paint from our our grandmother. Our father's mother had given me when I was seven years old. Nanny, we call her nanny. And this was a college level drawing and painting book that she had given to me and Christmas and inscribed in there. Oh, I didn't know you had that. Yes, it is my one of my prized possessions. And I was like. Oh, they always expected me to do this. Hmm. I'm going to take this seriously. I'm going to start building up a little studio. I'm going to start painting. I'm going to start teaching myself again. And and. And I did. And it was very frustrating. Very, very frustrating because it's like, wow, this is a lot of work. This is a lot of money. This is a lot of time. And man, do I suck, right? Right. You got to put your 10000 hours in. You got to put your 10000 hours in. And I think the real main thing is like the 10000 hours is one thing, but you got to make it past hour five. Right. Right. You got to make it past the ugly stage because everything hits an ugly stage. And then you're like, yeah, I just failed. Right. But, you know, you got to keep working and and make it back to what it was meant to be. So, you know, I started down this path again. Mm hmm. And in the in that, I struggled with it. It was very frustrating. And then all of a sudden, I realized, oh, this is my Zen. This is this is so cathartic. This is meditation for me. I can just zoom in and focus on a small part, meditate out the rest of the world and focus here. Just be here now in this moment. They call that flow. Yeah. And it's really important. I've been studying that a lot because I quit drinking this past year. So I've been researching. I go from it from a like a neurological perspective, but a creative flow and artist flow. Is that meditation? Because I don't know, have you ever been able to just meditate? Because everybody keeps telling me to meditate. And I have and I'm not very good at it. But when someone put it through the lens of like getting into a flow where I can just zero in on filing something perfectly or etc. that I can get down with. Yeah, I think it's the same and like from a neurological, you know, point of view, you, we, you and I talked the other night about neuro statics and neuroplasticity and how esthetical things such as music and art and things like that help make salient experiences that help you create positive memories. Yeah. And one thing that that flow helps is lower cortisol. Right. Right. So there's multiple research studies of that like, you know, so many minutes of creating art and hitting a flow lowers cortisol significantly, you know, significantly. Yeah. And I feel that. Yeah. Yeah. There's going to be a lot of South Bend just listen to as a loud motorcycle came by bend don't judge me but I'm probably not going to go back and take out all the noise. I'm not going to judge you and I'm going to help you. Oh, brother. Well, we've been already talking for an hour, which is kind of amazing. Time flies when you're getting to know your brother. Yeah. Over a podcast is. So you're still at Buffalo Nickel. How are things right now? It's good. It's good. I really enjoy the people and you know, I right now I foresee be in there until I'm not. How's the how's the salary? Where we at? Give me a range where, you know, it's it's cost of living in Oklahoma is very, very affordable. Right. You always take that income. So when I say it's. Ballpark, ballpark, 75 to 100. You know, let's let's put it between like 60 and 80, 80, maybe 90. Okay. Depending, you know, and that depends on if I'm selling artwork, too. Right, right. Right. You know, because you sell your opinions on the side. Yeah. Which when? When, you know, like I said, cost of living in Oklahoma compared to like Seattle or someplace like that is like a fraction of the price. So I make great money where I'm at. Right. And decent money elsewhere. I guess. I don't know. Yeah, I'll wait till I move. And I struggle to wait till I move. Till I struggle. Is there anything that I didn't touch on that you think would enrich this conversation? Any questions I should have asked you? I truly just loved getting to learn your trajectory, because for most of it, I was. I didn't know it. You know, for me, it's like I love working with other artists and I, I deal with a, you know, it's great to work with somebody better than you. I love to learn from. Oh, my gosh, I love that. Yeah. But I also love being the one that's better. And I don't mean that in a very arrogant sense, right? It means that I get to share what I've learned from somebody else and I get to teach it to somebody that might go through years of struggling like I did, because when I started painting and things like that was really pre-internet, I couldn't just look up a YouTube video on how to do this or, you know, find resources and working with people that are like, Hey, I want to learn to paint. And they'll come over and sit in my studio and like learn to paint and they'll ask questions. And that feels so good to be able to teach them things right and teach them so much so quickly. That might have taken me ten years to learn, right? So, you know, hey, pass down your knowledge. Well, I mean, I know you've listened to the podcast before, but some a common theme that I bring up is mentorship. Like my mentors make the world go round for me. I still have people who have been mentoring me for like ten years and they still continue to nurture me and help me out. It's really important to have those people in your life. Yeah, yeah. Ben, thank you so much for coming on my podcast. Thank you for mentoring me a little. He's going to teach me some editing tips and things like that, which I'm excited about. Yes, he's smiling. Yeah. It's just it's so special to get you have a get you on the podcast and it's what season are you on? I'm on season six of Hey Now, Hey Now we're a PG podcast mostly. What the heck? I know. Well, it's season six, but you know, the first four years of the podcast, I put an episode out every two weeks and that started to slowly but surely kill me. And it took it season six to give me a call. Oh, that was where you're getting out. Okay, right? Uh huh, yeah, kind of. That's fine. It gave me more time to add stuff to my rapport. Yeah. You're a total rock star now. I'm so proud to, like, know you and get to see all the cool things you do. It's amazing. Yeah. And that we have so much overlap. Well, I love watching your stuff, too, and listening to your podcast. Oh, thanks, bro. Yeah. All right, everyone. Well, this has been another episode of Perceived Value, the podcast broaching the subject of value with artists, creatives, our big brothers. Until next time. Perceived Value is a podcast recorded and produced by me, Sarah Rachael Brown. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram as at Perceived Value Stream is directly from our website at Perceived Value Podcast dot com or listen on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play. Just don't forget to rate and review us. Thanks for listening.